Kra Maga. first impressions.

[MAGon]

I've been looking in at some classes of this Israeli art, and reading up about it. A couple of things that were obvious from the start:

1. For reasons having to do with creating a national identity after long years of repression, many in Krav Maga call the art an Israeli "Fully modern method, with no traditional roots" (Paraphrasing one of the websites I visited.).
This kind of reminded me of some KMA adepts denying the Japanese influence in their "original, native" MAs. If that is so, and Krav Maga is only the evolution of the boxing and wrestling techniques that it's creator, Imi Lichtenfeld, was exposed to in his youth, applied to the Middle East battlefields... Then where did the Asian style kicks, and the colored obi ranking system extant in some KM schools, come from?

2. KM training struck me as mostly scenario oriented. Some basic technique is taught and practiced, but the development of proper form isn't emphasized. It strikes me as a case of KM having picked up, dusted off and perhaps improved the self defense techniques that Shotokan and Judo (For example) has mainly divested itself off, but pretty much ignored the rest.
IMO, just as those TMAs that have left behind their SD roots would do well to borrow a page from KM and go back to them, so KM would do well to imitate the TMAs preoccupation with proper form. As we TMAers know, his last isn't developed for esthetic reasons, but for efficient generation of raw power (If on top of that it looks good, that's cool with us, too!).
Based on my very limited reading, this is also the case of the USMC's MCMAP. And I've read that Marine instructors recommend to trooper-trainees that they get involved in TMA training to round out their H2H capabilities!

Your thoughts?

[harlan]

I had an interest in KM as well. I read one book, written by the founder of the art, and saw one documentary that focused on the weapons, and liked what I saw. Just seemed like really good, military based and direct system, and the 'nationalist'/'creation story' wasn't evident in what I read. (I really don't 'get' why systems turn to that gimmick to sell their art. Systema does it as well.)

Then I tried to learn more in person, and hit a brick wall. To all appearances, my impression was the KM in the USA was dominated by a 'commercial' mindset, in-fighting over territory, and politics. I didn't pursue it further.

[Victor Smith]

Well there's Kra Maga, then there's Kra Maga and finally there's Kra Maga.

Used to know a gentleman who trained under Imi Lichtenfeld when he was stationed there as a interpreter.

The original Kra Maga was deverloped for the Israeli Self Defense forces, and then modified to a civilian verison. After Litchenfeld's death my friend was invited back to Israel to share his knowledge in training children.

His opinion was the kra Maga marketed here in the States, was something else entirely from what he studied. Taught in weekend clinics, etc. and very removed from that art's original purpose.

Never studied it myself, but my friends opinions seem to make sense.

[MAGon]

BTW, I noticed I misspelled the "Krav" part in the thread title. Apparently, there aren't any KM people among our colleagues, so it seems I haven't egregiously offended anyone!

[DaveOddy]

I've seen sources online which credit Rony Kluger as the founder of Krav Maga. He has karate roots, so is this indicative of its history?

[dandjurdjevic]

I've seen sources online which credit Rony Kluger as the founder of Krav Maga. He has karate roots, so is this indicative of its history?

My instructor used to train alongside Rony when they were both in Cape Town. Another colleague of my instructor, Gordon Foulis, still has links with Rony. As near as I know, Rony might have co-opted krav maga into his teaching (especially since he is based in Israel) and might even have influenced its evolution in certain schools, but I don't think he created/founded krav maga. He is/was primarily a goju karateka (with links to the Jundokan, I believe).

[joroman007]

I met David Kahn, who runs the Hamilton NJ training facility for the Israeli Krav Maga Association; he trained directly under Grandmaster Guidon, the highest ranked black belt in the system (from Lichtenfeld himself). I was looking for a place for my oldest son to train, and while he respects TMA (he got his Isshin ryu green belt at 12), he is more interested in scenario and attribute training methods. David and his brother Abel are very proficient, work closely with NJ State Police and local law enforcement officers who follow their training methodology, and are very open and friendly as well. Some of their students do not exhibit the finesse (for lack of a better term) when performing their defense techniques that a person who has worked forms might gain from long practice, but the techniques are effective, direct and simple; I have no doubt they can get the job done.

Jo Roman

[Shidokai]

Considering Rony Kluger is credited as a member on the Jundokan website (and the Jundokan is very good about who is and isn't one of them...), I think it's safe to say that if he is a founder of Krav Maga, he brought the traditional in as well.

I have very little experience with the system, as most of the boom that surrounded it hit after I left the US, but I will say that the one thing that did reach me was it's ability to be turned towards commercial success - not unlike earlier MA trends with Judo and Karate, and now with MMA.

One thing that I've recently been hearing about in my own field of education is task specific ability versus generalized ability - essentially situational defense versus general movement capability. This might result in something like the Japanese high level university students, who are all capable of performing exceptionally well under high stakes test circumstances, but can't use their knowledge to save their lives.

Granted, this example is the extreme case, but it still strikes me as theoretically bad pedagogy, as it teaches surface rather than deep learning, and does not appeal to established norms of Piagetian development against behaviorist programs. While it is generally recognized that behaviorism (conditioning) is capable of performing extremely well under controlled circumstances, it tends to fail spectacularly when those circumstances even slightly deviate.

This is where the Japanese bujutsu model also fails - responding to specific pre-determined attacks rather than learning general good body movement and defense principles can be fatal if that is the lesson taken away. If, on the other hand, the teachers emphasize the principles as infinitely recursive beyond the situation, then the situational learning can be very powerful, but it requires an instructor who knows how to teach that fact.

This is why I would agree with MAGon's initial assessment that a focus on form aspect to any art, not just Krav Maga, is not only a good idea, but necessary. It can create a program to illustrate the recursive elements of a system.

[JKMann]

Well said Shidokai.
I noticed this in my time with the Japanese Shorinji Kempo folks. Their partnered kata routines were absolutely beautiful - good form, technique, power, balance. And they had good knowledge of waza. I definitely learned some helpful joint lock applications from them. But when we would spar, Holy Moly! For some of them, it was as if they had no idea what to do. I would spar nidans, but have to go at the same speed I do with timid while belts. Put them in an unfamiliar, semi-structured framework, and they were nearly helpless.

[dandjurdjevic]

Well said Shidokai.
I noticed this in my time with the Japanese Shorinji Kempo folks. Their partnered kata routines were absolutely beautiful - good form, technique, power, balance. And they had good knowledge of waza. I definitely learned some helpful joint lock applications from them. But when we would spar, Holy Moly! For some of them, it was as if they had no idea what to do. I would spar nidans, but have to go at the same speed I do with timid while belts. Put them in an unfamiliar, semi-structured framework, and they were nearly helpless.

Shidokai and Jeff, you've both recounted my views and experience exactly.

I have a black belt instructor from an eclectic system who has trained with us from time to time. Any new "form" (and by this I mean a sequence or just a technique) and it's like teaching a brand new white belt. It's so frustrating teaching this student that I don't bother correcting. And yet this student thinks they are "on a par" with my black belts. The truth is this student doesn't have even the most basic kinaesthetic awareness. In sparring this translates to the student doing the same old moves - with zero adaptability or development from lesson to lesson.