No contact fighting in Systema?

[dandjurdjevic]

I came across this video:

[JKMann]

I thought crap like this was unique to the USA. Then I saw the Japanese "Kiai master" and was disappointed to find it was in Japan as well. But Russia? Please, no! Russians have always seemed such tough, practical SOB's to me. The disillusionment is saddening.

[NewEnglandBudo]

There is a group of Systema practitioners that originate from the Ukraine that practice the form of Systema shown above. Personally, I believe that this stems from the mushroom & lsd experiments conducted by the GRU & KGB back in the 60's....

Looks Like Systema by Kevin Secours

It's human nature to classify, to group, to see patterns. We see faces on the moon and dragons in clouds (a phenomenon known as parodelia). We look for the familiar in everything we do. Naturally, when a practitioner of one martial art, looks at another, they generally make an instant determination if it looks like what they're doing (presumably if it does, it must be good, lest they face the task of admitting what they are practicing is lesser or wrong), or else it looks like another art (it's difficult to honestly admit that something looks unlike anything we've seen before). So it is that so many say Systema looks like "drunken bagua" , "sloppy aikido" , "bogus energy work", or a host of other quick assessments, used to dismiss what is different, unique and new.

In truth, Systema should have as many looks as it has practitioners. In the words of Martin Wheeler, senior systema instructor and director of Systema training in the U.S., "if it looks like Systema, you're probably doing it wrongly". The essence of Systema is adaptability and spontaneity. Students are constantly presented with new and challenges which they are encouraged to resolve creatively and naturally. While we are all ultimately limited by the mechanics of our bodies, our capacities and instincts vary widely and so every response should naturally be quite different.

In Vladimir Vasiliev's Russian Systema Guidebook, he wrote:
"When I was first being trained in the SOU, all the trainees were lined up and the instructor would hit each one of us unexpectedly. Each person reacted differently. They performed different body movements to evade the same kind of strike. Each person was unique in his reaction...Bringing attention to this movement will help [the student] realizes what his natural reaction is. He may jump away, lean back, duck or cover up. Virtually any movement is acceptable. The important thing is to remember that each person reacts differently and that these different reactions are the key for devising a defense."

Vladimir goes on to explain that each reaction, natural or not, has it's place. The instinct to step back, while perfectly harmless in it's own right, may not be helpful if you are standing on a bridging or near stairs. Further importance of learning your natural instinctive response is to improve it, control it and use it when it best suits you.

Often, I see students who try to imitate the master, to move like Vlad or Mikhail or even their own teacher. This is natural, but counter-productive. True work comes from discovering your own potential. We all have different capacities. Ultimate success comes from learning to maximize our innate abilities. Most enter Systema, far more tense and rigid than they imagined. If they can endure the frustration of this realization, they begin the work of eroding their tension, sanding off the corners of their jerkiness, and becoming progressively smoother. Like a pendulum, most of us swing too far to the opposite extreme, becoming lost in the idea of looseness, wiggling excessively before a movement or after absorbing a hit. Here is the first obstacle of the novice and the major culprit for imprinting the notion that Systema has a look--a wiggly, somewhat strange look at that. But once the student studies harder and continues their practice, this work occurs internally. The softness become intrinsic without a need to show it. The student simply returns to their body's intended state and operates efficiently. This is where the true Systema of that practitioner emerges. In the end, there are as many "systema" as there are practitioners.

"Fighting skill should evolve into an unconquerable weapon that can't be seen until used nor taken away while its practitioner is alive."
--Russian System Guidebook--

[dandjurdjevic]

I know that Alex Kostic includes a "psychological" component into his seminars and I experienced some of this (although it did not include any kind of "no touch knock down"). Alex is very much into the psychology of fighting and I have heard that he often focuses on this aspect. Some of this appears to relate to "psyching out" your opponent, relying on his/her reflex responses and other subliminal thought processes. Other exercises pertain to your own psychological responses in a fight. We did some exercises designed to "break us down" (breathing heavily under physical stress, for example) to see what would happen and how each person would react. I do know that some might regard this stuff as controversial, however what little we did still struck me as suitable for pragmatic, hard-nosed Russian types.

[Zach Zinn]

Actually the "no touch" responses to attacks and such are possible...not any kind of ki-projection thing, just the ability to trip up your opponent by not being there, now, i'd say you have to touch him to knock him down though, LOL, . It's a really high level skill though and to date I think i've met two people who can really blend with strikes like that, this dude doesn't look like he has the movement to actually avoid the blows to me...and i've met absolutely zero people who can knock someone down without actually touching them, like he does in the video.

What's shown in the video is a fantasy of real evasive skills with a TON of "teacher chi" going on, definitely deluded.

It always amazes me in videos like this to see whole groups of people just punching past their teacher lol...

As to people's surprise about Systema teaching this...I know there are some good Systema guys out there, and I don't doubt that it is most definitely a system with legitimate skills, but there are some BS Systema schools around, the same kind of mystical crap that exists in fraudulently presented Asian arts is present in some Systema circles.

Only difference is that instead of chi balls, ancient secret training etc...it's top secret spetsnaz stuff and psychological warfare research conducted by the KGB.

Personally I really question the origin story of Systema, either way though, the story of secret Spetsnaz training camps and methods blah, blah, it lends itself to being a good marketing tool for the less scrupulous, just like stories of ancient mountaintop hermit warriors or what have you.

Again no offense to Systema practitioners as I know there are some excellent ones, but you can find plenty of very questionable Systema video, some from big names in the system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9oLtYr_Uf0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJV ... L&index=33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eak-m2iw ... PL&index=3

I don't doubt there is some above board purpose to this training, but you have to admit there is a common theme with the video that was posted originally and these ones.

Not a fan if bullshido BTW, but I couldn't find the original videos with that stuff.

[Kumaken]

Actually the "no touch" responses to attacks and such are possible...not any kind of ki-projection thing, just the ability to trip up your opponent by not being there, now, i'd say you have to touch him to knock him down though, LOL, . It's a really high level skill though and to date I think i've met two people who can really blend with strikes like that

I agree Zach, not to mention needing impeccable timing. You really have to create that feeling of going to open a door when someone pulls on it from the other side. However, you don't have to touch them if they loose their balance...

While working with one of my guys I was trying to impress the need of putting intent into techniques etc. and just as I through a palm strike out as he charged forward, he stumbled backward a bit trying to avoid my hand to his face. We joked about chi blasts knowing he was just trying to get out of the way and tripped himself up. I could see how if you take a situation like that, mix in some "teacher chi" and you could distort it into something supernatural.

Of course moving out of the way so that they loose balance is different than waving your hand and electrocuting your attacker with invisible energy blasts.

[dandjurdjevic]

Many years ago I noticed that while I was at work I was building up a lot of static electricity charge while wheeling around on my office chair. Inevitably I'd get up off the chair and reach for something metal, like the filing cabinet, and give myself a nasty electric jolt.

One day a bloke in the office asked me if I'd show him some "secret moves". I said "sure". I waited till I was pretty sure I had built up loads of static electricity, and then went to see him. I said: "I've come to show you a secret technique. It is like a "death touch", except I'll tone it down so it isn't deadly. Hold out your fingertip and I'll show you." I then proceeded to "zap" him. I swear you could practically see an arc as I touched his fingertip. He jumped back in shock. Of course, I felt the "zap" too, but I just didn't show it (I was expecting it). I went back to my desk and left him shaking his head at this demonstration of a "ki blast" touch.

[Kumaken]

Dan, you devil.

[JKMann]

Along those lines, I talk about chi when I teach Taoism in World Religions. There is some serious lecture and some joking around. (I often show the dim mak scene from Bloodsport for fun.)

Anyway, in a different class I asked for any questions before the class started. One young woman wanted to know if it was true that I had "the power of chi," as she had heard from someone that I did. Of course, I told her it was true. The next class, I told them I could draw chi from my tanden and place it in my fingertips. Then, I had an athlete from the class come up and challenged him to do a fingerTIP pushup. Of course, he couldn't. I then made a show of drawing the chi into my fingers, and proceeded to do one on the tile floor. (Some of you will recall I have been working on those lately.) I couldn't keep a straight face throughout my little demo, but I'm wondering what rumors are circulating on campus.