The Hairy Master

[medulaney]

Has anyone heard of this guy before?

http://www.shaolinarizona.com/History.a ... r-Tai-Djin

[WuXing]

Oh brother. If this were a bigger forum this would be opening a whole can of worms. There are apparently a lot of people in the Chinese martial arts community who have a big problem with this system (especially since it is so widespread throughout the US) They hate that it calls itself shaolin martial arts, when it really has nothing to do with the shaolin temple.

I've studied in this system, in Colorado Springs. The short answer is, no one knows if he was real or not, since the only place you can find this information about him is from he grandmaster of this style, Sin Kwang The. It does seem almost too weird to to have been made up...so there may really have been a hairy monk who taught martial arts, but I've not seen any other lineage which mentions such a person. From what I've been told, the name translates to something like Su the "great grand master", which isn't very useful in finding out who he might have really been, if he really existed.

The truth of this system as I perceive it is that it is an amalgamation of styles which grew out of the Chinese immigrant community in Bandung, Java (Indonesia). The school presents a big list of styles and forms that it teaches, but actually only a few of those are a part of the core curriculum. It is a mix of northern and southern, external and internal, Chinese arts, all of which are known to have been practiced in western Java, with possible influences from indigenous Indonesian ways mixed in there, as well as Japanese or Okinawan karate influence (mainly in the form of cosmetic things like uniforms and organization).
Most of what is taught probably didn't come from a southern shaolin temple. Some people in the system, however, do believe adamantly that the historical legend is true, since the grandmaster has never said otherwise. They believe everything taught in the system really comes directly from the shaolin temple. As far as I'm concerned, the hairy monk is a piece of family folklore. The accuracy and veracity of the story remains unknown, the same as other near-legendary martial arts figures who probably really existed, but who's exploits were greatly exaggerated by their disciples and later generations. I've been told that this type of exaggerated storytelling is more common among Indonesian lineages, where at one time it was very important to be perceived as having the oldest "true and authentic" style.

[Kumaken]

I've seen this somewhere before, but can't place it. I remember reading an explanation as to why they wore karate gi and more detailed explanations. The website seems to have less info than what I recall from before.

[WuXing]

The given reason is that the tradition started in the original Indonesian school, during a time when Chinese immigrants were being persecuted. Though supposedly the shaolin school in Bandung was open only to Chinese, they started wearing gi's and using Japanese words in order to "stay under the radar" of the government. I don't know if that is entirely true. It is definately true that at times since Indonesian independance from the Dutch in the late 1940's, the Chinese minority have been persecuted, to the point that the Chinese language wasn't allowed to be spoken, all Chinese people had to adopt Indonesian sounding names for official use, and Chinese people and businesses were harassed by the indigenous population (that is partly because many of the Chinese immigrants were wealthy business owners, and mainly sided with the Dutch during the struggle for independance for monetary/business reasons). What I don't know is why they would need to hide their Chinese heritage if the school was open and known only to the Chinese community. If it was a business open to the public, it would make more sense. But who knows. This system is really a big mess (having been in it, I can say that). There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation, and general lack of information regarding the history of the various styles and forms taught within it, and the material is not organized in a very coherent way. There is some good material there, still, but there's a lot that needs work in terms of presentation and details.

Really, the gi doesn't matter at all, it's just a cosmetic thing. Whether the tradition came from Indonesia or Kentucky in the 1960's where the style was first taught in the US, it's just a weird thing that puts a lot of people off who first look at the school. Some of the schools out east have adopted Chinese style uniforms instead, in order to fit in more with the Chinese martial arts community-at-large. I'd prefer no uniform at all, but selling uniforms with the school name on the back is a source of income for struggling businesses.

[Zach Zinn]

So...Shaolin Do.

All I can say is, I have known people who studied this style, it appears to an amalgam of a ton of different CMA, done in Japansese uniforms, the place in my hometown taught something like upwards of 250 forms.

They supposedly taught bagua, xingyi, taji, white crane, and a ton of other arts...all under one super-art of "Shaolin do", which was of course, superior to any of the arts contained in it. Look under the "systems" link here:

http://www.shaolinarizona.com/Classes.a ... ct=Systems

Personally, big red flags for me when I see someone claim to teach such a breadth of styles effectively.

There may be good practitioners in this art, but I personally have always thought their claims of lineage are very suspect, and I can speak from personal experience and say that "Grandmaster The" is insane, he tells stories to his people about melting stuff with Chi and things like that.

Like I said, sorry to put down anyone if they are connected with the style, but we had a Shaolin Do place in my hometown, and I knew one of their "head instructors". It left a very bad taste in my mouth both with the questionable claims (red belts being historically red because of being stained with the blood of enemies..not joking, a sixteen year old "master" there told me this), and the claims that Shaolin Do is basically superior to anything.

I would take any history you read from Shaolin Do sources with a heaping table full of salt. I don't believe any of it, personally.

For the record the guys in my hometown (Albuquerque NM) for all their pronouncements of being some old, mystical CMA moved like very stiff, new Karate guys, I saw nothing there that vaguely resembled the little CMA i've been around. Some of them could freespar pretty good, but honestly you can get that a lot of places.

Sorry if this comes off as harash, I try not to jump on places like this, but seriously the whole history of the style and the claims of being superior to anything else are enough to warrant it.

[WuXing]

Well, that's the truth. Grandmaster The is eccentric, the only "history" stories he tells in public are legends and myths. The actual history is unknown for most of the system, all we know is he came from Indonesia, he and his brother both learned from a martial arts school there, they started teaching in Kentucky in the 60's. Over the decades, new forms continued to be added to the style, until eventually he had hundreds and hundreds. He's still introducing new forms every year in seminars, where they all come from no one really knows. It's implied that he got them all from a huge collection on notes which he inherited from the school in Indonesia. Some people think he gets many of them from books, probably published in China.
The instruction in most of the schools is not good. Too many things too fast. people are allowed to advance too fast, and I know many instructors who don't have much depth. And then you get a whole school of people who move like new karate guys, because the instructor has only been practicing for 4 years and has learned 50 forms in that time, and never got past the stiff karate guy phase himself (or herself). All that matters is that you can remember the postures.
The organization is terrible, and it's a shame because there is good material there, a strong base art of unique Chinese Indonesian kuntao that gets glossed over in 2 or 3 years. A new form every week, every month, then on to the next cool new thing.
It's a sort of personal challenge of mine to discover the real background of some of the forms I learned there, and about the real history of the style. I've been in contact with some of the old timers who started training with Sin The and his brother back in the sixties and seventies, but getting specific information out of them is like pulling teeth, since most of them are so loyal to him and the style. I have learned that the way they trained originally was far different than how it is today. They would spend most of their time just conditioning and doing basic techniques, and sparring. Occassionally Sin would teach a few new techniques which they would drill over and over. Then he'd teach a form that had those techniques in it. All in all, it took the original students years to get through the material that is now taught in months. Even so, you'd think those students, who are now the masters, would be able to teach things better. Apparently, most of them really just liked to do hard core training and fighting all the time, and the intricacies of technique, as well as learning anything about the history or background of style, was of no concern to anyone. The lack and witholding of information is all quite shady.

I wouldn't recommend anyone get involved with the system, and certainly not if they were new to martial arts.

[MattJ]

www.shaolin-do.com

In 1943, Sin Kwang Thé (pronounced Tay) was born in Bandung, Indonesia. His parents were Chinese but fled to Indonesia after the Communist Party came into power. Young Sin was drawn to the martial arts and actually began training in a lost art known as sandburn training at a very young age. In sandburn training, practitioners treat their hands with special medicine and then place them in buckets of heated sand. Over time, the sand is made hotter and the length of time one's hands are submerged is increased. This training toughens the hands but also makes the skin dangerous for other humans to touch, hence its attractiveness to martial artists. Sin Thé stopped the training after a sandburn master accidently picked up his grandchild without special gloves and the baby was killed. This master and all of his colleauges stopped teaching and all of their students were dismissed.

[Zach Zinn]

LOL yep, that was it, the melting baby story.

[Gwohsau]

Ah Yes,


Some say his is the original founder of Dog Boxing! Dohhhhh

Sorry, I just couldn't resist!