Seikichi Uehara Motobu Ryu

[Bechurin]

FYI Motobu ryu site by Motobu Chosei - some information in English:

http://motobu-ryu.org/motobuudundi_en.aspx

[NewEnglandBudo]

FYI Motobu ryu site by Motobu Chosei - some information in English:

http://motobu-ryu.org/motobuudundi_en.aspx

Thank you Sensei

[Zach Zinn]

I don't have any issue with anything in the videos other than the last one.

However I find it hard to believe that what is shown in the videos is any kind of exclusively Okinawan art which was hidden until now, that's the part I find hard to believe. When you take for instance the drills and activities shown in the Mark Bishop clip, is it really realistic to think theses drills and two man practices were directly transmitted from someone?

To me they seem like some aiki - esque dojo improv work, it's not my cup of tea but I can see the value in it.

I'm just skeptical about the real historical significance of "ti" te, whatever. It seems that you can take any kind of martial practice which is a bit more florid than Karate and call it Ti...why is there no curriculum of Ti? It's always spoken about so vaguely.

[dandjurdjevic]

Thanks Jim for your info.

I think there has been some cross-fertilization, however I do acknowledge that parts of bugeikan and Uehara's Motobu ryu systems (in particular the footwork) seem quite unique and not aiki-like at all.

[shoshin]

interesting footage, im very much 'on the fence' in terms of the accuracy of the Motobu Palace Hand art personally, in terms of authenticity historically speaking.

You know i've always wondered about it myself, it seems odd to me that something so radically different from almost every other art on Okinawa could exist in isolation, then suddenly blam...there it is.

I agree...

I disagree, this is an excellent history re:Tomari-te:

http://www.msisshinryu.com/history/tomari-te/

http://www.msisshinryu.com/masters/bushi/

You must recall that this was a very well kept private art for many years and was to become almost extinct until Nabe Matsamura decided to teach his nephew, Hohan Soken.

Seitoku Higa Sensei of the Bugeikan fame learned his Tomari-te from Choyo Motobu Sensei himself:

Master Higa Seitoku

Higa Seitoku is one of Okinawa's most highly respected Karate and kobudo masters. At the time of writing, he was the president of the All Okinawa Karate Kobudo Rengo Kai.

Master Higa was born in Naha City, Okinawa on January 20th, 1921. He began his training in Karate in 1931 at the age of 11 under Kishimoto Kijun sensei (teacher) and later in 1932 he studied with Kishimoto Koro soko (founder) sensei (teacher). Kishimoto had studied under a Shurite (boxing methods of Shuri) master named Takemura.

In 1937 after five years intensive training Higa Seitoku was ready to start teaching Karate (he was 16). In 1940 Mr. Higa participated in a demonstration in Kawasaki, Japan with Master Toyama Kanken and later journeyed to Mt. Fuji to practice. In 1943 he received the menkyo kaiden (certificate of full proficiency) from Kishimoto sensei and in 1945 received the Shihan menko (master's certificate) from Toyama sensei in Tokyo. Later we find the master pursuing his fondness for yagai renshu (outdoor training) in Sumatra practising in the mountains and teaching.

Master Higa is much involved in the organisational aspects of Karate and in 1947 received his 7th dan (degree) from the All Japan Karate Association. In 1948 he learned from Hanshi Chotoku (Sento Ryu) the (form) kata Seisan and opened a training hall in Kumamoto, Japan. At this time he was Vice President of the Nippon Karate Do Fuku Kai.

In 1950 Master Higa's students began teaching in Shuri, Okinawa. It was at this time that the master learned Pai Sai no kata from Chiko Choshin Hanshi (master professor) and later in 1951 he opened a training hall in the Naha Shuri area From 1956 he began studying Bo jutsu (staff fighting techniques) under Soke Chinen Masame Hanshi of Yamane ryu and in 1960 he was awarded the menkyo kaiden (certificate of full proficiency) of the Yamane ryu school of Bo jutsu. In the following year Master Higa formed the Okinawa Kobudo Kyokai and began Bo jitsu training with Uehara Sekichi sensei of Motobu ryu Uehara sensei had learned his art from Motobu Choyu, the brother of the well known Motobu Choki. Master Motobu Choyu had been a student of Machimura Bucho (the first important family connection).

In 1962 Master Higa learned two new kata. From Nakama Chosu sensei he learned Gojushiho (Useishi) and from Nakamura sensei he learned Pin-An kata. In 1963 he visited Kumamoto, Japan with members of his Association.

Master Higa became a Hanshi in 1964 and in 1966 he received the menkyo kaiden in Hiden Bu Jitsu and also received his Ku dan (9th degree). In 1967 he became the first president of the All Okinawa Karate Kobudo Ren go Kai and in 1968 changed his dojo name to Bu Gei Kan (Warrior Art House) and became President of the association.

Through a series of coincidences, Master Higa had purchased the land for his Bugeikan dojo in Shuri where Okinawan Te (ancient indigenous fighting arts) had been originally taught back in AD 650. In 1973 he became president of the Motobu Ryu Kobujutsu Kyokoi and in 1975 was awarded the Ju Dan (10th degree).

One of Master Soken's senior students, Yuichi Kuda studied in comparatively recent years by working not only under Master Soken and his successor Seiki Arakaki (who died in 1986) but also under Master Seitoku Higa. Thus, we have a second important relationship with that system.

Until quite recent times Master Higa taught many Kata, among these were Naihanchi, Pln-An, Seisan, Sochin, Jitte, Neiseishi, Chinto, Pai Sai Sho, Pai Sai Chu, Pai Sai Dai, Kusanku (Ko ryu), Kusanku (Bu Mura Ito), Gojushiho, Motode San Sen, Matsu San Sen, Jissen, Suchin, Rufa, Ni Dan Bu, Sanpa Bu Ryuha, Jion and Ananku.

His kobudo kata include the following: Bo (staff): Ogushiku no Bo, Chikin no Bo Chikin no Bo Dai, Shushi no Kun, Sunakake no Kun Dai and Sho Sakugawa no Kun. Tonfa (side handle baton): Tonfa San no Dai, San no Sho. Nunchaku (flails): Nunchaku Dai, Nunchaku Sho, Ni Cho Nunchaku, Shakunote.

Bugeikan kata are similar to other forms taught within Okinawa. Master Higa believes the most important item is spirit and good attitude. Today, Master Higa's son, Kiohiko is 8th dan headmaster of the Shuri Bugeikan.

From:http://www.rogersheldon.com/omaa/friends_in_bugei.html

Here is a demo of basic Tomari-te by Bugeikan students:

This is a display done at the Okinawan Budo University some years ago where Seitoku Higa founder of the Bugeikan demonstrated. Here Empty hand vs Yari. The techniques here are believed to come from Motobu Udun Di in which Seitoku Higa trained with Seikichi Uehara.

This is a demonstration of throwing techniques from the Bugeikan

Now this is a bit unbelievable for me:

Some exercises, Empty hand, Odori-te, partner weapons and free form examples.

This is Mark Bishop who learned his Ti at the Bugeikan:



I can't help that TI may not be your cup of Tea!

Now, I'm off to have a cup of Tea

Jim with respect im reading your post wrong or you have made some simple errors, I don't have time right now to explain in detail, but heres a simple outline -

1. Ti and Tomari te are very different things in this context anyhow

2. Seitoku Higa Sensei from the Bugeikan certainly learned an early karate system, and then stuff from all over the place - then he learned a ti system from Uehara Sensei IMO

3. the chap you call Mark Bishop is not Mark bishop but his students, Joel, Mick and others who form the bulk of Marks UK students (a nice bunch as well).

4. Nabe Matsumura and Hohan Soken were noting to do with Tomari Te, but were the 'family' lineage of Shuri Te - which is still practiced today as it is my 'lineage' kind of........

[neko456]

My question does this system pre-date Shuir-Te or Tomair-Te striking systems or were they developed along side each other before they merged into Shorin-ryu which seems to use a little of the Place hand system sometimes.

Also am I correct in thinking that Chosin Motubu's Motubu-ryu is the Place hand bodyguard system? And not Shotokan sorry I couldn't resist.

It obvious pre-dates the origin of Aikido but was it formulated along with Daito-ryu?

Obviously an off spring of Chin na, maybe?

[medulaney]

That is an excellent question neko. I am in fact wondering the same. Is the udundi of Choyu Motobu similar to the ti which was combined with the old chinese quan to create karate? Many of these video contain little striking techniques, which I have read the old ti was supposed to have. These video suggest that udundi was a grappling first art. It seems that what is shown is one aspect of udundi. I know that the royal family and its retainers learned the samurai arts from the Satsuma who occupied Okinawa. Therefore, their weapons arts and their accompanying grappling arts were probably learned as well. However, these practices were combined with indigenous okinawan arts and striking and kicking basics to form ti/te/di. Then the chinese quan were added to form tode. Then the name was changed, etc, etc, etc. What do you guys think?

[neko456]

Med I thought the same thing though I've seen some of Mark Bishop Ti and Uehara people do strikes they intercept and it looks rather elegant, unlike the rumored Te of Okinawan folk lore where they Pounded each other to death or near death with crude but effective methods of brutal fist fighting. Really it doesn't sound like it would look like anything that the dance like Ti would offer or does.

But I will say a Knock out can be a brutal Knock out and dance/form in training can seems little like REAL application. So maybe.

[shoshin]

I have video of Higa Sensei students and indeed Mark Bishop himself and students working striking techniques, the entry level involves a front fist strike and a front leg kick - done in a very dynamic, mobile way.

It is often the technique they defend against at long range for the grappling practices.

Some of the footage I have is from the 70's.

It can also be seen in the modern Motobu Undon Ti videos out there.

I am coming around to the idea that the Samuai arts did indeed have major influence on Motobu Undon Ti, and that art had little to do with karate which IMO is far more Chinese Quan based.

Both, it would seem have significant Chin-na roots, and therefore they are easily confused as being the same.

In Matusmura's letter he clearly defined the court art as being different to karate - the Okinawan Dance link seems much stronger with Motobu Undon Ti than Karate IMO.

It's a real tough one to be definate on anything as the avaliable lineage and records is weak all round, personally I think Uechara Sensei of Motobu Undon Ti certainly learned something different from karate in his youth, but built extensivly on that art with his more modern studies of Japanese JuJutsu.

[shoshin]

heres some early Seitoku Higa Sensei and students footage that represents well, what he did in terms of Ti, IMO -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZcU-GeK ... annel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCL6-euw ... annel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC3NfDdl ... annel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuhHlaqh ... annel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOukiIAn ... annel_page

It should be noted that he did in his later years he formulate his own method, Seido and this is now represented by his son -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZkluNMv ... annel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGU0GV3Z ... annel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54kHGNZ3 ... annel_page

I like some of the early Ti, I seriously find alot of the Seido rather insane...................