Seikichi Uehara Motobu Ryu

[medulaney]

In Matusmura's letter he clearly defined the court art as being different to karate - the Okinawan Dance link seems much stronger with Motobu Undon Ti than Karate IMO.

Which letter? Do you have a link?

[NewEnglandBudo]

Jim with respect im reading your post wrong or you have made some simple errors, I don't have time right now to explain in detail, but heres a simple outline -

1. Ti and Tomari te are very different things in this context anyhow

2. Seitoku Higa Sensei from the Bugeikan certainly learned an early karate system, and then stuff from all over the place - then he learned a ti system from Uehara Sensei IMO

3. the chap you call Mark Bishop is not Mark bishop but his students, Joel, Mick and others who form the bulk of Marks UK students (a nice bunch as well).

4. Nabe Matsumura and Hohan Soken were noting to do with Tomari Te, but were the 'family' lineage of Shuri Te - which is still practiced today as it is my 'lineage' kind of........

Jim,

Me bad, for posting things when my eyes are ready for sleep.

Higa Sensei did NOT train with Choyu Motobu Sensei...

Sorry, about the Mark Bishop listing because his name was listed in the tags. Never met the guy.

Me bad too, for the Palace Guard misstatement as it is also in my lineage. I was going to state that this was an example of an older version of Suide that was placed on a shelf for many years until Soken Sensei's return from So. America.

Humbly performing my 50,000 cyber-pushups......1,2,3,4,5......

[NewEnglandBudo]

In Matusmura's letter he clearly defined the court art as being different to karate - the Okinawan Dance link seems much stronger with Motobu Undon Ti than Karate IMO.

Which letter? Do you have a link?

Hey Marcel,

Here is the link regarding the Okinawan Dance:

http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=219&p=2274&hilit=dance#p2274

[NewEnglandBudo]

Thanks Jim for your info.

I think there has been some cross-fertilization, however I do acknowledge that parts of bugeikan and Uehara's Motobu ryu systems (in particular the footwork) seem quite unique and not aiki-like at all.

One of my Yudansha, who is a Staff Sergeant in the US Marines and one of the first instructors of their Marine Corps. Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) had an opportunity to train (-2001-) with Uehara Sensei prior to his passing in 2004 and obtained an honorary Shodan rank from him with their small group of Marines that trained on the Island for a year. (The first group of ten MCMAP instructors were chosen after being vetted for their martial skills by almost 20,000 applicants and have Dan grades in other styles..but that is a neat story for another time).

He demonstrated a lot of what he was shown in my dojo and many of the techniques required walking on the balls of your feet which the MCMAP folks found very similar to a Japanese Koryu sword style (the name escapes me- CRS)

I believe it was Mario that stated earlier in another another thread that Uehara cross-trained in Hakko Ryu. There is a Hakko Ryu dojo in the vicinity of Naha.

[medulaney]

In Matusmura's letter he clearly defined the court art as being different to karate - the Okinawan Dance link seems much stronger with Motobu Undon Ti than Karate IMO.

Which letter? Do you have a link?

Hey Marcel,

Here is the link regarding the Okinawan Dance:

http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=219&p=2274&hilit=dance#p2274

I see where he mentions okinawan dance, but where does he "clearly define the court art as being different to karate" as Shoshin states?

[shoshin]

Hey Marcel, see the new post created to discuss.

[medulaney]

I do now. Maybe I'll learn to check my messages before I post. Anyway, the version that you saw would make sense seeing that Matsumura saw it fit to tweak the ti he learned into what he felt was a more practical fighting art.

[shoshin]

I do now. Maybe I'll learn to check my messages before I post. Anyway, the version that you saw would make sense seeing that Matsumura saw it fit to tweak the ti he learned into what he felt was a more practical fighting art.

im not convinced he learned any real Okinawan (or Ryukyu) Ti, there is a strong case to suggest that the 'Ti' was indeed reserved for the Royals. (and considering how he writes in his letter)

Observing the reality that the Chinese influence was so strong on the island from the 14th century and proberly before I find it more likeley that he worked the Chinese Quan, or karate.

Of course therse is also the distinct reality that he was well versed in Japanese methods, due to his position and privilages, but this is an area i am now seriously looking into so I am not sure at this point.

But then again alot of older Okinawans, and indeed alot of written and spoken history does refer to 'Ti' simply as hand, and that refers to karate as much as anything specific - ie Matsumuras Ti, Hohan Sokens Ti, so again to be certian of anything is very difficult.

[neko456]

From what I gather one of Sagugawa Tode's instructors (who was Soken Matsurmura's inital Instructor) was one of the Imperial/Palace Guard I'm not clear if he only learned Bo/Sai weapons from him or Palace hand/Ti of course even way back then he was influneced by the Quan-fa that was available. Seems like it might have only been certain weapon because I notice application and training method are different. Being that the Royal Family pre exist before Sagugawa I would think that the use of Ti as the PHS was used before Shuri/Tomari-Te was created as a system.

[NewEnglandBudo]

From what I gather one of Sagugawa Tode's instructors (who was Soken Matsurmura's inital Instructor) was one of the Imperial/Palace Guard I'm not clear if he only learned Bo/Sai weapons from him or Palace hand/Ti of course even way back then he was influneced by the Quan-fa that was available. Seems like it might have only been certain weapon because I notice application and training method are different. Being that the Royal Family pre exist before Sagugawa I would think that the use of Ti as the PHS was used before Shuri/Tomari-Te was created as a system.

If my elder, feeble and leaking from my ears gray matter remembers correctly, Patrick McCarthy Sensei once wrote an excellent article debunking the Naha-te, Shuri-te and Tomari-te myth that they were separate fighting systems.

If I recall, there was some sort of festival and an Okinawa-te demo was to be displayed and the event coordinator was assigning when in the event which group would perform when he referred to the "Naha-te" group, "Shuri-te" group and "Tomari-te" group as a gathering of "Te" specialists from those areas that were to perform at a certain point in the program. The names stuck.

Now that Sensei is on this group, I will ask him if I am way-off or should go back to my physician and get stronger psychiatric medicine!!