Seikichi Uehara Motobu Ryu

[Katsujinken]

Re the Hakko Ryu connection to Uehara Seikichi Sensei. Uehara has always denied any connection to Hakko Ryu or any other Japanese Martial Art for that matter. Nevertheless in December 1962 Okuyama, the founder of Hakko Ryu, gave some seminars at Naha high school which Seikichi Uehara attended.

As regards the Shuri, Tomari, Naha Te thing, personally I think that too much is made of this in relation to Te, these three villages were within walking distances of each other, as terms they can only really be used as the labels for the practitioners that come from those particular areas. There are overlaps between the styles of Tomari, shuri and Naha. Yes may be we can say that the Chinese community near Naha had specific aspects to its training that we may now call Shorei Ryu, and yes there were families in Tomari such as the Oyadomari family, that became known for there own family fighting art which some like to call a form of Tomari Te. Seitoku Higa mentioned earlier did practise an old form of Karate, known these days at the Bugeikan (and elsewhere) as the Takemura lineage which was passed down by one Soko Kishomoto, who himself described what he did as an old form of Shuri Te. Kishomoto passed down the following three Takemura kata: Naihanchi, Ryufa (Takemura Passai) and Kusanku. That aside Kishomoto liked to use fast entry techniques and then enter into a form of grappling, these days we would call it Tuite (since Mr. Oyata, a former training partner of Uehara gave it that name). However it may be of interest to note that according to Ryūkyū Shinpō on January 17, 1914 : 'In Okinawa Jūdō started with Takemura from Momohara ... who at public expense trained in Kagoshima. His father, it is said, had been a disciple of Karate Sakugawa'.

Te it would seem is no more than a term for the fighting arts of a particular group of people or a person, it is that persons fighting by hand method, or a term used to describe popular hand fighting methods of a particular area. The term Te it seems to also be used by many to describe concepts separating open hand from fist.

As regards Seikichi Uehara he trained with Choyu Motobu up until 1926 then went to the Phillipines, he did not come back until after the war and there was no style on Okinawa called Motobu Ryu Udun Di until 1949 at the earliest, later Seitoku Higa became a student of Uehara and helped promote Motobu Udun Di along with some other arts. This led to its popularization. The history of Uehara's art is murky at best, virtually impossible to verify to any exacting historical standards, there are no records, the scroll Choyu Motobu gave Seikichi Uehara passing the lienage was bombed whilst sitting in a rucsac as Uehara met the call of nature. we also need to recognise the need for Okinawa to form something of its own national identity, separate from that of Japan or China, and dance is a popular medium for doing this in the East Asian Region (i.e.South Korea). But it does make sense to speak of Seikichi Uehara's Te, though Motobu Ryu practitioners of this type seem to prefer to use the term di over and above anything else, partially in order to separate themselves from the Shuri, Naha and Tomari Te discussions.

Just to add to the mix it also has to be born in mind that Seitoku Higa's son who now runs the Bugeikan, where they practised (at one time) there own form of Udun Di was also graded in and taught Aikido and this is cleraly influential at the Bugeikan and incorporated into its Seido, which also includes some Te and Ti or even di.

There are a lot of myths surrounding Matsumura, it seems doubtful that he taught Palace hand, but that does not mean that he was not familiar with it. It seems likely that he knew some Jigen Ryu, though I have not met anybody that can find any records in the Jigen Ryu of a Matsumura despite making requests for such information over the last couple of years. Frequently people try to link Jigen Ryu to Motobu Udun Di, but the difference between the two is far too wide for any real correlation to be shown, but....Jigen Ryu comes out of Taisha Ryu, and there does seem some similarity there.

Regards

Chris Norman

[Tanmei]

Dear Jim sensei,

Thank you for directing me to this query. Please find enclosed my reply.

I think the enbu [demo] you may be referring to was the 1867 "party" at Ochayagoten [East Garden Plaza of Shurijo] with Aragaki Tsuji Pechin ...see my original research here - http://books.google.com.au/books?id=5Zw ... &ct=result

The prefix names of which you speak, [Shuri, Naha & Tomari], were first established in late 1926 to identify the local places in which Mabuni, Miyagi & Kyan practiced and taught 'te' [i.e., kenpo toudi-jutsu 拳法唐手]. Specifically, they were thought up by a committee in preparation for a demonstration of Toudi [唐手/Chinese-based fighting] before Kano Jigoro's Jan 1927 visit to the island. The founder of Judo was visiting the tiny island to speak about Judo and education, and inaugurate the island's first "Judo Yudansha Shinko Kai." An aristocrat, with considerable political ties to the government and the Olympic committee, Kano was a man hailed as the nation's educator,and his visit to the tiny island was regarded as a GREAT HONOR. Considerable effort and planning was carried out by a rather conservative committee organized by the local board of education to host his visit. The idea of using any prefix [such as kara/唐], which identified China as the source of their practice, especially during that dark period of nationalism, anti-Chinese sentiment and radical military escalation, would not have been in good taste and certain to spark hostilities from opposing political forces.

Using the names of the local areas from which the principal demonstrators taught/practiced was agreed upon, featured in the program and ultimately stuck. Hence, the "birth of," Shuri-te, Naha-te & Tomari-te.

[NewEnglandBudo]

Dear Jim sensei,

Thank you for directing me to this query. Please find enclosed my reply.

I think the enbu [demo] you may be referring to was the 1867 "party" at Ochayagoten [East Garden Plaza of Shurijo] with Aragaki Tsuji Pechin ...see my original research here - http://books.google.com.au/books?id=5Zw ... &ct=result

The prefix names of which you speak, [Shuri, Naha & Tomari], were first established in late 1926 to identify the local places in which Mabuni, Miyagi & Kyan practiced and taught 'te' [i.e., kenpo toudi-jutsu 拳法唐手]. Specifically, they were thought up by a committee in preparation for a demonstration of Toudi [唐手/Chinese-based fighting] before Kano Jigoro's Jan 1927 visit to the island. The founder of Judo was visiting the tiny island to speak about Judo and education, and inaugurate the island's first "Judo Yudansha Shinko Kai." An aristocrat, with considerable political ties to the government and the Olympic committee, Kano was a man hailed as the nation's educator,and his visit to the tiny island was regarded as a GREAT HONOR. Considerable effort and planning was carried out by a rather conservative committee organized by the local board of education to host his visit. The idea of using any prefix [such as kara/唐], which identified China as the source of their practice, especially during that dark period of nationalism, anti-Chinese sentiment and radical military escalation, would not have been in good taste and certain to spark hostilities from opposing political forces.

Using the names of the local areas from which the principal demonstrators taught/practiced was agreed upon, featured in the program and ultimately stuck. Hence, the "birth of," Shuri-te, Naha-te & Tomari-te.

Tanmei Sensei ,

Thank you for your prompt reply. I did recall reading the aforementioned but could not recall the source.

See page 6 of the referenced book by McCarthy Sensei:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=5Zwwx79TG5YC&pg=PA6&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=0_0#PPA11,M1

Yoroshiku,

[shoshin]

Hey Chris and Patrick Sensei - thankyou for joining in with this topic you both bring a huge knowledge to the subject.

[neko456]

Though the explaination of why the City of the Practioners of the kenpo system was used rather then the usual calling, was to be politically correct, is more clear. Some say its obviously or can't be proven that Matsumura studied or trained Place hand or was really ever trained in Jigen-ryu. No more then I/we toudi users know Aikido though I am familar and can use its flow and application. It seemed that his Striking system made him popular and a un-offical part of the Palace Body Guard or Bounty Hunter for convert actions of the Royal family. As in the folk lore of the Orgin of the Chito Chinese Pirate/method/kata development.

It's still doesn't clearify if Di or Jigen-Ryu existed before Toudi-Jujitsu or where they developed togather and the striking art became the more popular because it was less similar to Daito-ryu already practiced in Japan?

The old argument Did grappling exist before striking in Okinawa?

[Katsujinken]

"It's still doesn't clarify if Di or Jigen-Ryu existed before Toudi-Jujitsu or where they developed togather and the striking art became the more popular because it was less similar to Daito-ryu already practiced in Japan?"

Now that is a complicated question, there are a lot of factors that need to be taken into account, and when one does, there are just a whole set of issues that make the question virtually impossible to answer with any real certainty.

Jigen Ryu is a Japanese art, the history goes something like this. The Jigen Ryu has its origin in the Taisha Ryu founded by Murame Kurodo No Suke Nagayoshi (1540-1629) using part of the name of his teachers (Kamiizumi Nobutsuna) school the Shin Kage ryu, for Marume had originally called his school Taisha Shinkage Ryu. One of Murame's own students had trained under Kamiizumi Nobutsuna (Murame's original teacher) and then returned to Marume. After which Marume then dropped the name Shinkage from the styles name and renamed his own style the Taisha Ryu style. It was one of Murame's Student's Togo Shigejura (1561-1643) who then went on to found the Jigen Ryu. So Jigen Ryu as the Satsuma clan art certainly had arrived in Okinawa by King Sho Koshin's time and he was a puppet King under the Satsuma. Given the nature of Jigen Ryu as a combat system I would suggest that it be more likely to have influenced Toudi Jutsu that became Karate Kempo than any form of Udun Di. But then we do not really know what Jigen Ryu looked like when it first came to Okinawa, we also have to bear in mind that Jigen Ryu is not actually as unified as first appears, there are several different branches that have developed in the 1800's when Bushi Matsumura allegedly learnt the art.

As regards di, I assume by the use of that term with that particular spelling, you mean the type of di used by Uehara Seikichi Sensei and the meta narrative of the Motobu line. Allegedly the Motobu Udun di line begins with King Sho Koshin who reigned in Okinawa 1648 to 1688. It was apparently inherited through a family line, but nobody seems to know exactly where from.

If Motobu Udun Di is really as old as is claimed, then it predates Daito Ryu, which is actually quite a late invention with Sokaku Takeda, though there are claims that the Takeda family was originally related to Minamoto Yoshimitsu, that takes us back to the 12th Century. That aside there are stories about Takeda going to Okinawa and the commonly held belief that Shunten, the first Okinawan King, was the son of Minamoto no Tameyoshi, brother of Yoshimitsu. so there is another link that can be traced back to the same origins of the Daito Ryu legend.

Jigen Ryu and Daito Ryu are different arts and occur in different time frames, the history and origin of Daito Ryu is a controversial issue even among its practitioners from what I gather, though most agree it was the name Sokaku Takeda used the name to promote his art, it is also part of the basis of Hakko Ryu, Okuyama had studied it along with Chinese Medicine before creating the eight light school. So there is another link in the seminars at Naha High School in 1962 which Sekichi Uehara attended.

As regards Toudi Jutsu, that is a Chinese art, at least suggested by its name, Tou = Tang = China, the term therefore would appear to mean Chinese Hand art, the Okinawans were involved with the Chinese much earlier than the Satsuma invasion, suggesting that Toudi came first, before Jigen Ryu to Okinawa.

But if you accept the Shunten story and you buy into one version of the origins of Daito Ryu coming from the Minamoto clan and then a leap to the completely unverifiable conclusion that what King Sho Koshin inherited was from Shunten and was therefore a Minamoto family art, then you may choose to hold the belief that Udun Di is an old art, much more so than any Chinese influence and has the same tap root as Daito Ryu.

Then there is the problem why is it that striking arts seem more popular in Okinawa than grappling?, the reality is that the Okinawans in all probability had their own indigenious fighting system and over the years and it developed incorporating various things that were imported from other arts both Chinese and Japanese in origin, as well as from other places. This argument would suggest that what became Toudi was much older than anything else. Some argue that Di or Ti is in fact no more than the name for a pre Kata Okinawan fighting method, that has its origin before any of the stuff mentioned here.

However if you want to suggest that the earliest form of combat was wrestling, then you may want to bring Tegumi into the equation, but that does not look like Udun Di at all.

Regards

Chris Norman

[Tanmei]

Hi folks,

Few argue that grappling [not the same refined skill of today] is the oldest of all fighting arts. Naturally, percussive impact served to enhance its overall effectiveness. I doubt seriously that the two were ever inseparable when used in combat...why would they? There are no rules in fighting - only to defeat the opponent at any cost. That said, weapon-arts have long been considered superior when and wherever fighting is concerned. That an unarmed fighter may or may not be able to defeat an armed opponent in combat would depend entirely upon skill and experience as the armed warriors. I doubt there were many unarmed survivors in armed conflict.

I've never studied Jigen Ryu personally, but I certainly watched many demonstrations during the years I resided in Japan and was deeply impressed with its aggressive brutality. Also, I got the opportunity to interview Togo Shigemasa, the 11th generation head master of Jigen Ryu, at Japan's International Budo University, the year that he came up to give a lecture and overview of its history, ethos and tactics. Personally, I can't imagine even today's top MMA fighters having any chance against one of these guys with sword in hand. If anyone's interested, there's a little of the Togo interview in an article I wrote many years ago entitled, "The Sapposhi, Pechin, and Samurai," located here http://www.geocities.com/keikoden/McCarthy.htm

Finally, something on Tegumi, if I may.

When Grandmaster Nagamine petitioned me to translate his book, "Okinawa no Karate Sumo Meijin-Den/沖縄の空手角力名人伝　「The Biographies of Okinawan Karate & sumo experts, but released in 2000 by Charles Tuttle Publications under the English title, "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters"」 I in 1994, I had been heavily involved with submission fighting [serving as Takada Nobuhiko's/髙田延彦 sparring partner] and busy systematizing a group of clinch/grappling practices and hand drills, that I had collected from a variety of sources [Fujian, Shaolin, Taiwan, SE Asia & the UWFI] into my dojo curriculum. When I came across the name "Tegumi" 「手組/lit. hand/s & unit, cross, lock, link, set, partner, pair, etc.] I was immediately drawn to it.

Learning as much as I could about this old discipline from local Okinawan sources I became fascinated by the stories Grandmaster and his friends shared with me and the sheer brutality that often eventuated from local men crossing hands with each other in the Tsuji [red light] district of Naha. Testing one's skills through Kakie-damashi matches were a popular thing amidst young men during the old Ryukyu Kingdom Period and apparently up to pre-war years, too. That some of these "matches" often escalated into grappling bouts was, from what I understood, quite common. While there were several accomplished locals who excelled at such matches during the pre-war years, including Yabu Kentsu, I am sure few will be surprised to know that one of the best experienced fighters was no other than Motobu Choki himself.

As the term Tegumi had become an outdated [FYI, by 1994 I had never heard the term used anywhere else in the nearly thirty years that I had studied karate at that time] long ago and replaced with a new name, Okinawan Sumo [not to be confused with Japanese Sumo] I couldn't stop thinking about resurrecting it to represent the eclectic body of practices I was bringing together under the name Koryu Uchinadi, and so I did. By late 1994 I had officially brought together a unique set of drills & practices using the name "Tegumi" and set about to promote them as a part of my "old-school" Koryu Uchinadi curriculum.

To the best of my knowledge this was the first time the term Tegumi was publicly used in the Western world until Tuttle publish my translation of Grandmaster's book, in 2000.

[Katsujinken]

McCarthy Sensei,

I could not agree more with the first paragraph of your last post. As regards Tegumi, I think that it is useful that you made the statement that you did about it, as it may help dispatch many of the myths that have appeared about it in Karate circles in recent years. As a point that I have noted is that since the term Tegumi has appeared in the Nagamine text and through your own efforts with Koryu Uchinadi many people have made claims to practising some Tegumi, and even made instructional videos, although these in my educated opinion are often little more than Pseudo-Judo or modern Ju Jitsu added on to Karate techniques.

In Nagamine Sensei's book which you translated the term Mutou is used, can you enlighten us any more on this term, beyond the point stated in the text that the term was popular around Shuri.

I would also be interested to know, being aware that you have met Uehara Seikichi Sensei and seen much Jigen Ryu, is do you think that there is any link between the arts of Jigen Ryu and the Motobu Udun Di of Seikichi Uehara?, personally I cannot see it, but I would nevertheless value your view on this.

Also what was your own impression of the art that Seikichi Uehara practised/taught?

Do you think that the lineage that is claimed for the art is a construction perhaps tied in with ideas of developing an Okinawan sense of national identity in more recent times?

Did you ever have the opportunity to meet with or see in action Seitoku Higa or any members of their family (Kyohiko, Reiko or their children) at any time whilst on Okinawa?

Regards

Chris Norman

[Tanmei]

Hi Chris,

To the best of my knowledge Mutou was the local way that Uchinanchu described Chinese grappling in and around the old castle capitol of Shuri during the old days. There are two general theories about its origins; #1. It was learned in Tang-China [唐中国] by the Kentoshi [遣唐使] and brought back to Japan where it became entrench in the warrior culture [武士の文化] and allegedly introduced to Okinawa by Minamoto Tametomo [源為朝] during the mid-12th century. #2. It was a plebeian Chinese grappling tradition [most likely Jiao Li/角力] that arrived in the old Ryukyu Kingdom during the late 14th century via the Chinese community in Kume.

During Okinawa’s old Ryukyu Kingdom Period, Tegumi matches had no official rules to speak of. That someone “won the match” by falling their opponent was more important than how it was accomplished. It depended entirely upon the participants and sometimes even the spectators whether or not rules should be applied. From what I gathered, some of those bouts were just as brutal as any MMA matches are today, although probably nowhere near as technically sophisticated. Nowadays, Okinawan Sumo matches are quite subdued compared to the old days, and have 5-min time limits and scored on being put on your back three times. Some say it looks more like Mongolian wrestling with jackets.

http://www.ginowan-okn.ed.jp/ginowan_ki ... /dc17.html
http://www.genji.co.jp/noge-net/topics/sumou/sumou.html
http://rca.open.ed.jp/web_e/history/sto ... itu_5.html

I did know and respect Uehara Seikichi as a Bujin --- martial artist and a gentleman. It’s difficult for me to respond to your query with a simple answer, although it’s quite obvious to anyone who has watched both disciplines that they are worlds apart from each other in practice and presentation. Moreover, in its “pure” form [whatever that is], Motobu Udun Di isn’t supposed to have any stylised form at all! Some say that this style-less practice exemplifies old-school “te.” Personally, I was quite impressed by Mr. Uehara and saw several sides of his art over the many years I had the privilege of knowing him. There was controversy surrounding his art --- some say that, in spite of having “studied” under Motobu Choyu, he had Yudansha rank in Koryu Jujutsu and was quite inspired by Ueshiba Morihe. I cannot say one way or the other, but I do believe that the art he presented in his old age [DOB 1904] was far softer and more circular than what he’d learned as a youth; The same has been said of Ueshiba! BTW, I’d been on the end of a few of his application practices and can attest to his power and strength even as an old man. FYI, there’s an English translation of his interview on Youtube here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5o7x5SHdu8

“Do you think that the lineage that is claimed for the art is a construction perhaps tied in with ideas of developing an Okinawan sense of national identity in more recent times?”

I wouldn’t disagree with this observation, and would add that, ever since the introduction, modification and popularity of modern karate on Japan’s mainland [i.e., the JKA phenomenon], there’s been an enormous reverse influence back upon the subsequent evolution of “Okinawan” karate. There’s little argument that Okinawa has spent considerable money and effort to regain a sense of cultural proprietorship to karate/kobudo. That said, I sincerely believe that the message set forth by the pioneers was one of eclecticism and innovativeness as generic principles and timeless practices need to be continually reinterpreted in order to keep this art a functional contribution to the community it serves – lest it becomes overly ritualised and a “classical mess.”

Finally, I did not have the pleasure of meeting Higa Seitoku in person but certainly know of his history and place in our art. I first read about him in the early 1980’s in a Passtime magazine article written by Robert Teller and later another by Ernie Estrada. My own teacher, Kinjo Hiroshi, knew Mr. Higa quite well and spoke highly of him. I certainly have watched enough Bugeikan demonstrations to appreciate his art. As I am a Yamane Ryu stylist, my interest in Mr. Higa’s background was based largely upon his experience in this kobudo style and not his connection to Udun Di.

Have a nice weekend.

[Katsujinken]

McCarthy Sensei,

Thank you for your comprehensive reply that goes a long way to answering my initial questions and provides some further insight into Mutou, I suspected the Chinese link due to the Tou and its use in Okinawan dialect for China and things of Chinese origin. The link to the plebian grappling tradition identified was very helpful, thank you.

Much of what you have stated confirms many of my own feelings and observations on the subject of Motobu Udun Di and Uehara Seikichi Sensei, there is little doubt in my mind as to the ability of Uehara Seikichi as a martial artist and he certainly had a number of Senior Okinawans study under him including Seitoku Higa, Seiki Toma, Shian Toma and Seiyu Oyata who absorbed some Udun Di into their own styles and my experience with people from these lineages over the years leaves little doubt as to the effectiveness of many of the strategies and techniques employed. Interestingly many of the lineages aforementioned in their use of grappling techniques do appear more linear, as you say was the case with Uehara Seikichi's style in his earlier years, than what is seen in many of the videos taken of Uehara Seikichi in his later years. I had always wondered about this.

I am aware of the article in the Passtime magazine that Robert Teller wrote back in the 1980's on Seitoku Higa and have been trying to find a copy of it for quite some time now, the most I have managed to find is a short extract from it in the book Shindoryu yumemaboroshi no jutsu which is about Seitoku Higa.

If anybody has a copy of the Robert Teller article on Seitoku Higa article from the 1980's and can scan it I would be very grateful.

Regards

Chris Norman