Seikichi Uehara Motobu Ryu

[mugitani]

Chris,

I think it's quite clear that udundi tuiti is quite different than Japanese aikijutsu. I only need to look over at the aikido folk practicing next to us on Saturdays to see that (and they say the same thing). Any similarities to Hakko-ryu are also superficial in my opinion. If Uehara sensei created the whole system from exposure to one seminar (which even a Hakko-ryu participant at the seminar disputes), that would be quite a feat.

I also don't think there is any claim that the present-day udundi is something that has passed down unchanged from the 17th century or before. Even Choyu sensei seems to have recognized that some techniques and history were hopelessly lost even at his time. Uehara sensei's later studies were aimed at filling in some of this history rather than part of an overtly nationalist agenda, as we discussed previously. This work is ongoing.

Last, from my senpai who trained with Uehara sensei I have heard that he trained youth and beginners in go no te but his own personal style at the time was "for old men." I see that reflected in our training as well. Physical limitations and deeper understanding of mai no te seem to have played a much larger part in any apparent transformation of his style than exposure to other arts.

Aaron Meldahl

[Katsujinken]

Hello Aaron,
Whilst I agree with you that there are clearly some differences between Japanese Aiki Jutsu as well as Aikido and Motobu Ryu Udun Di, there are also a number of similarities, exactly where these came from, if anywhere, lacks any clarity. As regards the Hakko Ryu seminars in December 1962, it was to my knowledge a series of seminars rather than a one off. Some people have claimed that Seikichi Uehara held a high grade in Hakko Ryu, others included Seikichi Uehara, have always denied this and any connection of Hakko Ryu to Motobu Udun Di, but alas nobody seems to be able to confirm or deny this with any level of real authenticity. Again whilst there are similarities between Udun Di and Hakko Ryu and even Aikido, there are also to my knowledge many differences.

At no point have I stated that Uehara Seikichi created the whole Motobu Udun Di system from Hakko Ryu, Aikido or any form of Japanese Aiki Jutsu. Although there is a line of thought that suggested some years ago that after Ryuho Okuyama had visited Okinawa and found that some of the techniques did not work on the Okinawans that he stayed and incorporated elements of Okinawan Martial arts into Hakko Ryu (perhaps this was the seminars held at Naha High School in 1962), what we do know is that this was shortly after a Hakko Ryu display in Taiwan, and I personally suspect that some of the facts have been muddled. There is also the viewpoint stated by someone else in another post on this forum that Seikichi Uehara gained some inspiraton from Morihei Ueshiba (the founder of Aikido).

Whilst I would not dispute that physical limitations and deeper understanding of Mae no Te has played its part in the development of Motobu Ryu Udun Di, I think we have to acknowledge that some inspiration and or influence may have come from other sources at various points, and if it has, where the material has come from in order to fill in the missing gaps in the Motobu family arts (it is likely that some material must have come from somewhere) and why that material from whatever those particular sources was selected. Personally I doubt that we will ever get a clear answer to this question. Interestingly though I know a number of Aikido people who do see a correlation between certain aspects of Udun Di and certain aspects of Aikido, but not to the point of saying that Udun Di is an Aikido variant or even based upon it.

I think that we also have to bear in mind that Seikichi Uehara trained with Choyu Motobu from 1916 to 1926 (10 years) and then went to the Philipines, not returning to Okinawa until 1947 (21 years later), when according to some sources he renamed what he had learnt from Choyu Motobu, Motobu Ryu Udun Di, which was not promoted publicly until 1970 (23 years later).

As regards Nationalistic agenda, I stated as a question to Patrick McCarthy 'Do you think that the lineage that is claimed for the art is a construction perhaps tied in with ideas of developing an Okinawan sense of national identity' as it seems to me that a claim to an original Okinawan Martial Art which was taught to Okinawan Kings (of the Sho family) for several generations and with the name Sei reading as an alternative to the name Sho would suggest issues of Okinawan Identity. But as you stated we have already discussed this elsewhere.

Regards

Chris Norman

[mugitani]

Chris,

Well there is some cursory information on the possible origins of tuiti, Uehara sensei's involvement in the Hakko-ryu seminar and study of Ryukyuan dance on the Motobu-ryu site:
http://motobu-ryu.org/default.aspx

I think other misunderstandings that people may have are based on the limited footage available, the language barrier, unavailability of instruction, and reliance on second-hand information now that Uehara sensei himself is gone.

I still don't understand the significance you are placing on "udundi as a construction of national identity". It's both obvious (please tell me a traditional martial art that isn't) and a non-issue. I personally find the documented history of who the Motobu Udun were and how it challenges myths about weaponless pacifism and interactions with Chinese and Japanese cultures during the Ryukyu Kingdom period interesting. But it's not really a topic of conversation at the dojo, and one doesn't have to "sign on" to that interpretation of history or any other beliefs to practice.

In the end though, if people just can't believe Uehara sensei or his students, that's fine too.

Aaron Meldahl

[D. Branchaud]

A demonstration of Motobu Udundi often raises many questions. The comparison to Aikido, as noted, always rears its' head. It was noted earlier on in this forum that Udundi seems to be so radically different from other Okinawan styles that it seems to have come out of nowhere. I can see, upon catching a a tiny view of Udundi, how one could conclude that Motobu Udundi is strikingly different from karate. In practice, however, "feels" amazingly similar.

I am a practitioner of Okinawa Kenpo, which, for all practical purposes, looks much like other Shorin systems currrently practiced on Okinawa. I also practice Motobu Udundi (since around 2004). Frequently, when practicing either art, there is an amazing feeling of familiarity when performing certain techniques. The feeling occurs when practicing certain kata of karate, and it also occurs when practicing certain punches, kicks, weapons or tuite of Motobu Udundi. What is not apparent to the eye, is recognized by the body. I can feel, identify, and now see, many techniques common to both systems, in places that, at first, didn't look familiar at all.

Okinawa Kenpo, of course, has long had ties with Motobu arts. Nakamura, the founder of Okinawa Kenpo, learned under both Choyu and Choki Motobu, as well as other teachers. His student (my teacher), Seikichi Odo, also studied under Seiki Toma, a student of Uehara Sensei. Odo Sensei has certificates signed both by Uehara Sensei and Nakamura Sensei confirming their relationship.

There is so much in common, between Okinawa Kenpo and Motobu Udundi, that it seems that karate is a simplified and standardized (through the use of kata) version of the "ti" type of martial arts. I don't mean to imply that karate is inferior. It just seems that, in practice, Motobu Udundi is not as different or radical as the casual observation may lead one to conclude.

D. Branchaud

[dandjurdjevic]

Thanks to everyone for their input on this thread. I, for one, am very intrigued by Motobu Udundi and I have not been able to put into context or interpret with certainty what I have seen so far. The information on this thread is helping me understand the art. Keep it coming!

[mugitani]

in practice, Motobu Udundi is not as different or radical as the casual observation may lead one to conclude

Just for the record, I agree with this. Choyu sensei was taught by and later taught basically all the famous karate-ka of his day. Uehara sensei also interacted with the martial artists of his time. Anybody learning udundi now gets it through the prism of someone who studied something else first.

However, there are principles and techniques that distinguish it from other Okinawan arts and there are historical reasons for this. Experienced aikido and karate-ka come to our dojo and spend literally years relearning. That's why I think it is unfair for people who have not experienced it first hand to dismiss it as something made up when there are certainly arts that are far more so, although I don't feel compelled to point that out to them.

It also just bugs me that there are so many bad translations out there (like the one about the dancing in the Matsumura Sokon thread) and historical misinterpretations (such as no weapons in Ryukyu) that are wrongly used to insinuate against it. Helping to correct those things are kind of my mission right now because I think they are bad for the martial arts as a whole.

[Katsujinken]

Aaron,
As previously stated elsewhere, you have done a good job with the Motobu Ryu website.
The information that you have provided on the connection between Seikichi Uehara and more importantly for me, the Higa family, and the so called Hakko Ryu connection is invaluable to say the least. Thank you. Interesting that Kiyohiko Higa states he was actually at this seminar. If you have any more information on Kiyohiko Higa's involvement with the Hakko Ryu seminar in Naha I would be particularly interested in it.

Another factor which I know that you are aware of from other forums on which we have discussed this subject, is that there has been some confusion regarding the alleged Hakko ryu connection which is related to Shian Toma, a former student of Seikichi Uehara and his Seidokan organisation, A high ranking American Sensei (who incidentally was also graded in Hakko Ryu) in Seidokan Shorinryu gave the Hakko Ryu nomenclature to the first series of toide(torite) waza, a set of 27, which were taught in Seidokan, and which had their origins in the Motobu Ryu Udun Di that Shian Toma had learnt from Seikichi Uehara. Although this set of techniques do not have the same designations in the original art of Seikichi Uehara, the person that named them for Seidokan claimed that the waza are the same ones (but does not go as far as saying that they have the same origins). Shian Toma is quoted as having said that 'that Ti and Ju Jutsu are same-same.' Where as others have said that some of the wristlocks shown in Motobu Udun Di are common to jujutsu (and Aikido), but they can not be identified or categorically rejected as Hakko Ryu. At the end of the day there are only so many ways that you can lock a wrist or an arm. Clearly the dynamics of Hakko Ryu and what can be seen of Motobu Udun Di from readily available material do differ.

Interstingly I had a chance to see Mr Oyata's (Mr Oyata trained in Okinawan Kenpo and at one point in Motobu Ryu Udun Di) RyuTe system first hand when Jim Logue came to the UK and did some seminars a while back, whilst there were some similarities in terms of wrist locks seen in both Aikido and Hakko Ryu the way in which they were executed in the RyuTe I saw and experienced differed, although one participants I was paired with (much to my annoyance) did insist on trying to do Aikido versions of these rather than the RyuTe versions which are different in the way and angle that they are applied ( I might add here that the same comment could be made to similar techniques seen in White Crane Chin Na as well). There was also to my mind a clear relationship between what may be regarded as the di and the application of Okinawan Kata in RyuTe.

As regards the issue of national identity, the question is an academic one, originally raised here: http://www.dentokanhombu.com/2.0/history.htm what makes the issue of interest to me is as an academic question, specifically the relationship between traditional Okinawan dance, the royal family arts and what has happened elsewhere in Asia as regards the promotion of national identity and links with dance. As you say you do not have to sign on to any interpretation of history in order to practice.

Regards

Chris Norman

[mugitani]

Chris,

Uehara sensei himself reportedly said that the wrist waza of Hakko-ryu were similar to the "first steps" of udundi's tuiti. These are likely to be only things that casual observers or beginners will ever see or experience. While udundi's waza go beyond the wrist and elbow, I would encourage a more holistic view comparing the arts beyond just the joint waza, in particular how application of the waza are entered into and how struggling opponents are dealt with. Movement, distance, body position and posture, use of strength, flow between waza--all of these things need to be assessed in any comparison since, as you say, the ways pain can be inflicted on a joint are limited by anatomy.

Also important are the very very different ways these waza are taught. Whereas my perception is that in Hakko-ryu teaching progresses from seated to standing, udundi's emphasis on transmitting momentum to the opponent means the waza are taught from the beginning as integrated with the fundamentals of walking and motode. Except for when learning the very first steps of how to actually apply waza to the joint, practice is done in sotai-dosa free sparring rather than yakusoku kumite, at once more difficult and potentially dangerous than I have seen in other arts.

Aaron Meldahl

[Tanmei]

I remember my Okinawan teacher [Kinjo Hiroshi - DOB 1919] showing me a photo of Mr. Uehara, where he appeared as a Jujutsu yudansha in an old Koryu book. I've called him this morning and asked him if he'd look through his library and cite the reference and I'll get back to you when I hear something.

[NewEnglandBudo]

Chris,

Uehara sensei himself reportedly said that the wrist waza of Hakko-ryu were similar to the "first steps" of udundi's tuiti. These are likely to be only things that casual observers or beginners will ever see or experience. While udundi's waza go beyond the wrist and elbow, I would encourage a more holistic view comparing the arts beyond just the joint waza, in particular how application of the waza are entered into and how struggling opponents are dealt with. Movement, distance, body position and posture, use of strength, flow between waza--all of these things need to be assessed in any comparison since, as you say, the ways pain can be inflicted on a joint are limited by anatomy.

Also important are the very very different ways these waza are taught. Whereas my perception is that in Hakko-ryu teaching progresses from seated to standing, udundi's emphasis on transmitting momentum to the opponent means the waza are taught from the beginning as integrated with the fundamentals of walking and motode. Except for when learning the very first steps of how to actually apply waza to the joint, practice is done in sotai-dosa free sparring rather than yakusoku kumite, at once more difficult and potentially dangerous than I have seen in other arts.

Aaron Meldahl

Aaron,

The Hakko Ryu Mokuroku is the the many of the Shodan and Nidan curriculum are taught via seiza, then move to a tachi waza. (Shodan & Chudan meaning 1st & 2nd levels, not to the kyu/dan ranks as they use a Menkyo Kaiden system)