Kakie - what is its purpose?

[Zach Zinn]

However, there does not seem to be a direct combative advantage given to a "kakie master" due to his advanced kakie training.

There is no such thing as a kakie master, kakie is a small, ancillary part of Goju ryu training for most people, that would be like being a "yakusoku kumite master" or a chi ish master.

[RenegadeMonk]

And I fear you are straying into the territory of claiming understanding on something you clearly have almost no personal experience with..Goju Ryu kakie, and how I feel about my own training,

I made no such claims, feel free to quote where I made any such claims.

Try to understand Zach, the questions being asked are "What is it people are doing and why?" Of course I have no experience of Goju kakie, but I do have experience of other sensitivity drills and, shock of shocks, I have used my experiences to understand and interpret what I am seeing and being told.

What I definately do not ever do is claim knowledge of things I haven't experienced. At this point I would ask whether you have trained in any chi-sau/push hands exercises other than Kakie and for how long?

Things like you trying to argue with me that teachers of Okinawan Karate have had some CMA training that "influenced" them, you obviously seem to believe that generally Karate just doesn't touch on certain skills, I believe you are wrong.

It's sad that you interpret someone saying "in my experience 'x' is usualy the case", as arguing with you. That said, based on this discussion I would revise that statement completely and take the discussion in an entirely different direction.

I don't think Goju, or Karate holds every skill of every other art, I simply think it isn't only a "lesser" version of the Chinese arts that influenced it, which seems to be your argument here in the kakie thread, where you clearly believe that chisau imparts some hidden knowledge that kakie cannot.

First off you are the only person who mentioned lesser or lite anything. Read what is written not what you imagine to be.

Second, this statement seems a might contradictory. On the one hand you accept Goju doesn't have everything, but on the other hand, at the suggestion that it might lack something you feel like I am calling it lesser.
This confused contradictory approach is quite prevalent in your posts. You seem unsure if Goju has everything I and others suggest chi sau imparts or if Chi sau just doesn't impart these things.

If you want to know my opinion of Goju ryu karate with comparrison to southern chinese MA, then just ask.

On the subject of kakie on youtube, if you are using youtube as a reference for what something is in Karate, all I can say is that is nonsense.

As a total side point, I'd disagree to a small extent. Youtube is clearly far from definitive, but I think if you can see enough video's of something on youtube its as good a way as any to get a general idea of what that thing is supposed to look like. Taking the say so of two people on a web forum vs 50 videos by different people from different countries on youtube might be a good idea depending on who the two people are, but if you are looking for a general viewpoint your probably better off trusting the video's.

However, this is a side point because the point has nothing to do with what is posted. I was trying to find out why the kakie drill was being practiced in the manor I was seeing on youtube. My comments on why I thought the drill doesn't make sense in that form is a comment on what I was seeing. I never said Goju was limited to what I was seeing nor did I make any accusation about what all Gojuka do. Seriously, re-read my posts and quote me when I said all Goju does kakie like this.

You seem to be disregarding what people on here say it is, or can be, and assuming the youtube versions are the definitive ones, a big mistake in my opinion.

No, I'm trying to reconcile what is said with what I am seeing, and where what is being said says what I am seeing is not how its done, I am asking why is it done like that while explaining why what I'm seeing doesn't make sense to me. Simples.

[Zach Zinn]

Well I will try to be less antagonistic about the rest of the stuff, and just focus on the subject.

My own experience:

Shodan in Goju ryu (about eight years in Goju now) with two different, very good teachers. I have done a fair amount of kakie, it is not my favorite thing and only recently have I come to find some real value in it, after experiencing a few different methods of doing it. It has not been a huge part of my training, but it has been there I suppose and I feel like I can speak about it from some amount of experience, though maybe less than alot of other folks on the board.

I am doing Judo right now, and studying Goju on trips to my teachers dojo every so often. On the subject, the sensitivity of a good Judoka is well beyond anything I have experienced from other arts, it is their bread and butter, and were I to look for functional training in "sensitivity", I would go to Judo before almost anything else..in fact, that is precisely one of my reasons for doing it. Push hands in other arts makes for nice ancillary training..but on some level I have to agree with Shoshin that in a percussive art that emphasizes simplicity and effectiveness, the whole tactile sensing thing is overplayed in some circles. Do as much push hands as you want, I sitll don't think it will ever give you kind of whole body sensitivity that a Judo guy has.

I also had my own small dojo where we practiced kakie sometimes, and have been able to do some experimenting with it, and so been able to form my own perspective on what it is, and what it does. It's by no means set in stone, just what I think about it at the time, maybe my opinion will change.

As a total side point, I'd disagree to a small extent. Youtube is clearly far from definitive, but I think if you can see enough video's of something on youtube its as good a way as any to get a general idea of what that thing is supposed to look like

AS far as the youtube thing...here are some links that popped up when I did a search on "push hands"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA8rLL-IE7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KgL6p0NCn8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOwvKNw26k

Should I assume that the above links are a definitive study of what "most people" who do Taichi consider push hands to be? Probably not, but that is exactly what you are doing with Kakie. You are unable to reconcile what you see on youtube with what you hear because it does not need to be reconciled, kakie is not the same thing to everyone, and seems to differ widely even within Goju circles.

The hand motion is all I have seen that is consistent, however that hand motion is also found in push hands in other arts, in fact you can watch one of the clips above, and you will see essentially the same motion. The approach I am sure is very different, but the physics are extremely similar.

[medulaney]

However, there does not seem to be a direct combative advantage given to a "kakie master" due to his advanced kakie training.

There is no such thing as a kakie master, kakie is a small, ancillary part of Goju ryu training for most people, that would be like being a "yakusoku kumite master" or a chi ish master.

I know, that's why I put "kakie master" in quotes. My statement was designed to point out that being good at kakie will ultimately make one good at kakie and I personally have a preference for getting good at combat, especially if the practice is not directly related to hand to hand combat.

[dandjurdjevic]

Renegade... Sorry for not reading your post carefully enough. I suspect I was replying to comments made by others at different times, and assumed you were making the same post.

Dan, As for the vertical arc, without continual deflections, I appreciate your point. However, I don't see it as simply a precursor to the horizontal circling. I have found countless hours of fruitful work learning how to absorb and project from my body rather than my arm. Is it more basic and a precursor than the horizontal versions we do? Perhaps. But perhaps that is like saying kata is more basic than and preparatory for bunkai. It's true, but there is a great deal to work on in the preliminary form.

By "basic" I wasn't being derogatory. I meant it in the context of "precursor". I think the vertical arc teaches valuable lessons. Generally speaking, when I say "basic" I mean "less complex" or "not compound". It is not a criticism, merely an observation. I'm a big fan of fundamentals. Compound movements are things you do as an adjunct.

[RenegadeMonk]

I was curious just about your experience of chi-sau to understand what you based your comparison of the skills gained through kakie on.

My own experience is primarily through Fujian white crane and exposure to wing chun students. I hear what you are saying about Judo players, but my experience of them is limited. What I found with the few I trained with was that though balance was excelent, skill in striking in that standing clinch range was less so. My own training has proved a help in both areas as both are focussed on, though I'm sure I'd be thrown about like a rubber chicken by a skilled Judoka.

Some examples of chi-sau that I think illustrate a little more of the potential developed by the drill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJfguxnlCqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82amIexv1V8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai1HtkMMrEc

As a total side point, I'd disagree to a small extent. Youtube is clearly far from definitive, but I think if you can see enough video's of something on youtube its as good a way as any to get a general idea of what that thing is supposed to look like

Should I assume that the above links are a definitive study of what "most people" who do Taichi consider push hands to be?

No, not a definitive study, as I stated in my previous post which you quoted above. But Looking at those links I feel they sufficiently answer the question on a general level, what is push hands and what does it look like?

You are unable to reconcile what you see on youtube with what you hear because it does not need to be reconciled, kakie is not the same thing to everyone, and seems to differ widely even within Goju circles.

That's a fair point, but it would still leave the question, what is being gained by the commonly viewed IOGKF practice of the Kakie drill? At this stage though I feel that this question has been answered well enough.

[Chunmonchek]

I've been following this thread and the "Flow" thread with some interest. There have been some good things posted, that I agree with. I don't really contribute to "Sensitivity", "Flow", "Energy", etc types of threads as, IMHO, these types of things are experiential, and do not lend themselves to spoken or written words or even video transmission. Unless we have common or at least similar experiences, we most likely are talking past each other.

By way of my experience, I've been training Goju since 1971, Okinawan Goju since 1980, and along the way have dabbled in JuJutsu, Pekiti Tersia, Wing Chun, Judo, have done some Wrestling and have played hands with Chinese Martial Artists, some from southern hakka systems. I have trained Kakie, Chi Sau, Hubud Lubud, randori, etc. and sometimes with very high level practitioners in their respective disciplines. The common element is that these exercises have is that they are developmental..for the purposes of cultivating certain attributes that are useful for fighting with the art...at a fairly high level.

Its like training to punch from chamber. Chamber, for for the most part is developmental. If you are punching from chamber in a real fight, you missed something along the way. Simple as that. Too many misunderstand that sharpening the blade is still worlds apart from wielding it.

We train kakie with a number of purposes in mind, including:

-for its mutual rejuvinative/therapeutic effect immediately following kote kitai, another frequently misunderstood training method
-to develop rooting and center in a dynamic give and take drill
-to reinforce proper "power" generation, originating from root and tandens in a dynamic give and take drill
-to train proper posture and body alignment in a dynamic give and take drill
-to development "sensitivity" and "flow" both offensively and defensively in a dynamic give and take drill
-to "flow" an offensive or defensive technique/movement following the first "read"
-to reinforce the need for live hands
-to reinforce proper breathing

And except for the first item listed, I believe that chi sau, hubud lubud, push hands, and randori share many, if not all, of these purposes.

Caveat-Again, these are just my "words"...the actual concept would most likely need an in person sharing.

Shodan in Goju ryu (about eight years in Goju now) with two different, very good teachers. I have done a fair amount of kakie, it is not my favorite thing and only recently have I come to find some real value in it, after experiencing a few different methods of doing it. It has not been a huge part of my training, but it has been there I suppose and I feel like I can speak about it from some amount of experience, though maybe less than alot of other folks on the board.

It has been my experience teaching Goju that in the beginning years kakie teaches (or should teach) more center, posture, alignment, root-center-hand movement and breath coordination and efficient power generation. It isn't until there is a fair proficiency that "sensitivity"and "flow" are effectively cultivated. I am not talking about the flow of kakie to wrist locks, arm bars or throws. I am talking about the "sensitivity" on contact from un-connected hands. The goal would be to use only enough to neutralize an attack and to put the attacker in a disadvantageous position-whether you are cutting through the attack, neutralizing or redirecting, etc. On the flip side, the goal would be for your attacking hands to "know" when they have been neutralized, redirected, cut, etc. and to change-up to deal with the situation.

If this is cultivated properly, true "muchimi" is easily understood.
If cultivated properly, Goju kata will open themselves up.

Again, see my above Caveat...

I am doing Judo right now, and studying Goju on trips to my teachers dojo every so often. On the subject, the sensitivity of a good Judoka is well beyond anything I have experienced from other arts, it is their bread and butter, and were I to look for functional training in "sensitivity", I would go to Judo before almost anything else..in fact, that is precisely one of my reasons for doing it.

Standing in a striking range, I don't think much of Judo's sensitivity. In this range, I've experienced better/more useful sensitivity from practitioners who practice chi sau, kakie, push hands, etc. Interestingly, I note that I've experienced a "bong-sau" type movement in Goju, Wing Chun, Pekiti and even Aikido, all used in a similar fashion, but with slightly different flavors.

Once the fight closes past striking range, I would agree that Judoka's sensitivity generally is superior, as that is their "bread and butter". I have had the opportunity to train with 2 very high level Judo Sensei. Both have had their students competing and medalling in the Olympics. Both had "touches" that I couldn't read, at all, until they wanted me to. I never heard either talk of or teach "sensitivity".

Once the fight goes to the ground, it has been my experience that generally collegiate wrestlers have better "sensitivity" than Judoka.

Push hands in other arts makes for nice ancillary training..but on some level I have to agree with Shoshin that in a percussive art that emphasizes simplicity and effectiveness, the whole tactile sensing thing is overplayed in some circles. Do as much push hands as you want, I sitll don't think it will ever give you kind of whole body sensitivity that a Judo guy has.

I think it teaches a different type of sensitivity than Judo. I also think that for "percussive arts" sensitivity is necessary if you want to have an effective art in the twilight years. As time goes on, I find myself using less and less strength or even power...

I also had my own small dojo where we practiced kakie sometimes, and have been able to do some experimenting with it, and so been able to form my own perspective on what it is, and what it does. It's by no means set in stone, just what I think about it at the time, maybe my opinion will change.

Hopefully it will.

Chris

[Zach Zinn]

That's a fair point, but it would still leave the question, what is being gained by the commonly viewed IOGKF practice of the Kakie drill? At this stage though I feel that this question has been answered well enough.

Well, we are in agreement there, I don't know what the point of the kakie where people just trade rote techniques is, I have never understood that one. I don't practice kakie like that, and wasn't shown it that way, so I am not sure.

I hope it doesn't sound like i'm bagging on IOGKF people either, I have a huge amount of respect for them, I just notice it seems to be a standard IOGKF practice to do kakie like this. You can find video of Eric Hiagonna doing just this, the technique is top notch mind you, I just don't get the format.

I think it teaches a different type of sensitivity than Judo. I also think that for "percussive arts" sensitivity is necessary if you want to have an effective art in the twilight years. As time goes on, I find myself using less and less strength or even power...

I think there is alot more to "old man technique" than just sensitivity, but I get your point.

Hopefully it will.

It's virtually guaranteed, one of the most exciting things about MA to me is that your perspective on them never stays the same.

[Kumaken]

Chumonchuk: I don't really contribute to "Sensitivity", "Flow", "Energy", etc types of threads as, IMHO, these types of things are experiential, and do not lend themselves to spoken or written words or even video transmission. Unless we have common or at least similar experiences, we most likely are talking past each other.

I think this an important thing to keep in mind with threads like this as these concepts/topics can often have varying terms used to describe them that might be particular to each individual. It can be very easy for a simple inquiry to turn into a heated debate, particularly talking about a practice that can have multiple variations from person to person. Likewise often looking at a video will not give you the "feel" for an exercise. Heck I've been at seminars where I've seen participants demonstrating every variation possible but the one shown by the demonstrator, and they were in the same room!

[Chunmonchek]

Interestingly, the latest issue of Classical Fighting Arts features an interview with Minoru Higa, of Kobayashi Ryu.

In this interview Higa states that one of his teachers was Jin'an Shinzato, arguably Chojun Miyagi's best pre-war student (some might not even include the pre-war qualification). He goes on to say that in his dojo they practice kakie, but their's is "different from that of Goju Ryu. We use it to judge the power of a person's technique".

Maybe not so different than what is practiced in many Goju dojo, IMO.

Caveat-the interview was conducted through an interpretor, and as such, things may have been lost in translation.

Chris