Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

A forum for all styles of karate

Moderator: Kumaken

 

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby neko456 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:36 am

JKMann wrote:Thanks for the replies. That was helpful.

As I begin to think about this, my initial reaction is that Goju's "sticking" is a heavier sticking. It is not as fast with multiple quick shots, but a heavier sticking, grabbing (cf. nigiri game), and pulling, combined with fewer but more powerful strikes.

This is just my initial reaction. Do you think I'm going in the right direction or off base?



Neko456 - I agree this is what I see though the more I work with each I do see the similar techniques but not the repeated strikes. Naha-te sticking seems to be more like the Kali folks heavier and more deliberate blows. Dan points to some great example of Naha-Te sticking and you notice like JKD we do more power hitting then trapping unlike say the WC systems. One of the mental purpose of say wing chun is to leave a guy standing and trapped after hitting. Naha-Te or Karate seems to most time like to takedown/sweep throw (more like Pakua or Tachi) then we strike a down opponent rather then leave standing trapped. Now Hakk systems do have numerous throws/trips/sweeps but in most incidents that I've seen they perfer to trap and hit with opponent standing and off balance. Whereas Karate doesn't expect you to be standing after one and certainly not numerous a solid blows weather they have a hold or not/sticking. Just an observation.

Chein demo is different then my approach to Goju our body type is different and so we would go about doing things different. What I am impress with is that it IS different and seemly effective though I agree in a conflict I don't think the guy would be standing to asorb all that and have it end with the throw and hammer fist. Its a good flow drill but not how I examine Kata I explore it in smaller segments with the take down coming right after a staggering combination such as deflect uke, shuto - mageri, elbow/back fist then hand throw and smash that head.

I'm impressed with it because it was a Different, I like different "Little Ideas", to steal Hakka quote.
neko456
Senior Member
 
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:49 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby gojuryubudoka » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:45 am

Bechurin wrote:Further clarification - This "muchimi" using the kanji for "whip" (鞭身) does not exist to the best of my knowledge in Goju ryu karate. This "muchimi" using the kanji for "rice cake" (餅身) does. It is usually read in Karate circles as "muchimi", but to the non-practitioner and uninitiated it would be read "mochimi" using standard Japanese pronunciation.


Mario,
Thank you for the clarification. I do not speak japanese or okinawan. So you would have much more knowledge in this area than me.

In our school we do however use both terms "mochimi and muchimi" and both techniques are different. I can see the confusion that some schools use only the one technique but the terminology can be different.

Dan, I appoligise for my misunderstanding.
gojuryubudoka
Member
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:41 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby DaveOddy » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:57 am

dandjurdjevic wrote:Personally I quite like Taira's renzoku bunkai.

The only criticism I have is that his partner's responses are fairly minimal (both because Taira is not actually landing blows, meaning his opponent isn't moving away and, more importantly, because his partner isn't really resisting/blocking or countering any of the attacks).

This seems to me a common trend in renzoku bunkai design and crops up also in the "Grease lightning" thread: drills designed for a continuous "rain" of blows are quite impressive and arguably useful, but are necessarily limited in that usefulness.

In terms of drills for striking I prefer to see combinations of 1 or 2 (at the most 3) quick attacks, all of which are dealt with/blocked/evaded/intercepted. In this way both sides actually learn to handle responses as well as "dish out"...


I've been on the receiving end of his practice and believe me, you try to resist and move away. The reason you don't see much response is because his movement is designed to maintain initiative and keep you on the defensive. He doesn't land blows because you (hopefully) know the pattern well enough to block everthing, but with less experienced uke, you will find that the pattern doesn't finish beacuse blows are landed - once blows are landed it comes to a close very quickly as it should. For example, if you were to see him try the pattern on me (even as someone who kind of knows it) you wouldn't see it in its entirety. Why not? Simply because I couldn't keep up with the defense and the fight would end in the first couple of moves. However, the established pattern would let him press the advantage and keep initiative until that happened. This is VERY relevent against an untrained attacker as karate is designed for.

Another thing you don't see on the video is how the opponent's subtle reactions play into the execution. For example, if you pull, the kata may go one way and if you push it goes another. In fact the differences is geki-sai ichi and ni are primarily due to the way your opponent handles the two moments when you are somewhat vulnerable as you sweep on one foot. If they allow you to pull at these points, geki-sai ichi teaches you what to do and if they resist, geki-sai ni explains what's next. This is why the two variations in the kata occur after the vulnerable kata points. But on a video, you wouldn't see this resistance from the uke - it is too subtle.

The intent of his method isn't to go through the whole pattern until the last move finishes off the opponent. The reality is that every technique should end the fight and that, at worst, a single combination from the pattern will end it. However, by practicing the patterns in their entirety, you learn to connect techniques and limit responses to them so that in reality you are ready for different response situations that you lead your opponent to. You also learn relevence in the kata by seeing how it all fits together.

One of the amazing things about his bunkai is the manner in which he eliminates your options for response. He leads you into predictable options (usually only one) and then takes advantage of them. It is not a back-and-forth thing that requires you to keep up with random attacks (an impossibility at reality-based close range), etc. but a pressing attack with little option to turn the fight around. And many of his strikes double as blocks, so that if your opponent happens to get a counter off, your strike intercepts it on its way in, becoming a block - often the only difference between a block and a strike in application is who gets there first. Best of all, it comes directly from the kata. Back and forth doesn't work in a real fight - you need to establish initiative, remove options for responses and push to finish. This is what his bunkai does.

I can't compare his method to chinese practice because I haven't trained in them, but his method is very valid to me as someone who has felt it and tried to keep up with it. Interestingly, I remember a time when he was in hospital in the early nineties for a knee injury and we brought him some chinese MA training and demonstration videos to watch. He enjoyed them and talked to us about how chinese martial arts directly influenced his thinking. But he will always state strongly that what he does is well within the principles of goju-ryu - in fact it is a direct validation of the kata and practice methods of goju.
Dave Oddy
Syracuse Martial Arts Kenkyukai

Authentic Goju-ryu Karate in Syracuse, NY
Elite-level WKF Sport Kumite
DaveOddy
Supporter
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:09 am
Location: Syracuse, NY
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby Zach Zinn » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:55 am

I'll chime in here and add my own (completely unsolicited) opinion. In my view what is shown in the video is vastly preferable to alot of bunkai drillsbecause the partner plays less of a role, this is exactly how it should be I think, your uke should be providing some simple actions and resistance and that's it. You want stuff that works globally, not specific to certain attacks.

Being originally trained with some of the Toguchi drills, I feel that pre arranged bunkai drills which involve a lot of "back and forth" are useful for the beginning stages of training and that's about it. Too much back and forth drilling creates an expectation of certain techniques and a tendency to react rather than act.
"they'll never ever reach the moon, at least not the one that we're after"
Zach Zinn
Supporter
 
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:33 am
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 122 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby swdw » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:37 pm

On Dan's comment about the Praying Mantis video- I agree.

To explain why- I was at a seminar where a senior practitioner would at times and with different individuals illustrate the idea of continuous attack. When he did, he came fast and hard (But never abused anyone)

What would happen is he would start a chain of techniques and the partner would start backpedaling. Because the instructor was so fast he wound up overwhelming his partner. You may say, well isn't that what you want?

No, because usually in these kind of drills one thing is missing. The person defending against the attacks getting off line, evading, or quickly changing directions. So this is where Zach's idea of a passive opponent can set you up. At a minimum the opponent should be trying to evade the chain or interrupt it. Why- because you need to know how to keep the chain going in such circumstances.

It was interesting at the seminar because the instructor did an "impromptu" continuous attack on me when showing me a technique. I handled the first 3 incoming, but lizard brain knew this wasn't going to work much longer and all the time spent getting off line made me go sideways w/o even thinking about it. Somehow, I even maintained contact with the last attacking limb and was in a position to hit him.

This little illustration isn't meant to brag, but to show that there is action that needs to be required other than being passive. You can allow the other person to settle into a habit that may get him in trouble if you are too willing to go along with what he does.

I've also seen a couple of times when someone trained the way Dave mentions has problems because his techniques do not create the "predictable response". Usually with a person from another art or style that does things differently. This usually creates what's called 'pattern interruption' in the individual and totally derails him. Why? Because he was locked into a certain sequence and his subconscious mind couldn't deal with something going south.

BTW, when the instructor saw I was off line, he was wide open, and I was ready to fire back, he stopped. Then he did something that really upped my opinion of him. He stepped back, smiled at me, nodded his head and said, "Good!" Then went on to show something else.
swdw
Member
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:03 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby Zach Zinn » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:06 pm

Sigh...I wasn't advocating having a passive or fully compliant opponent, who would do that?

I was advocating bunkai drills that encourage taking initiative and work for a variety of responses rather than an "equal exchange". There are lots of different ways of practicing kata application for a lot of different purposes. I'm gonna take a wild guess that what's shown in the video probably shouldn't be expected to be the only form of training going on.

Frankly my first thought to most people's reactions to the Taira bunkai video is that people may not know what they are looking at in terms of training context.
"they'll never ever reach the moon, at least not the one that we're after"
Zach Zinn
Supporter
 
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:33 am
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 122 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby Kumaken » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:43 pm

BTW, when the instructor saw I was off line, he was wide open, and I was ready to fire back, he stopped. Then he did something that really upped my opinion of him. He stepped back, smiled at me, nodded his head and said, "Good!" Then went on to show something else.
swdw
Associate

Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:18 pm


Nice anecdote and some good points. Sounds like a pretty good instructor too being able to recognize the situation and not let ego come into play.
Ryan
User avatar
Kumaken
Staff
 
Posts: 2338
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:21 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby DaveOddy » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:53 pm

swdw wrote:No, because usually in these kind of drills one thing is missing. The person defending against the attacks getting off line, evading, or quickly changing directions. So this is where Zach's idea of a passive opponent can set you up. At a minimum the opponent should be trying to evade the chain or interrupt it. Why- because you need to know how to keep the chain going in such circumstances.


The footwork in the kata helps set you up to follow your opponent if they go off line - but this has to be practiced. Also once the pattern is learned, you SHOULD try it with opponents who move off-line and work out the problems with direction changes. Taira-san actually has a specific example of this in his teachings of Seiyunchin for example, among others. This is part of the training. Noone says continuous bunkai has to follow a straight line.


swdw wrote:I've also seen a couple of times when someone trained the way Dave mentions has problems because his techniques do not create the "predictable response". Usually with a person from another art or style that does things differently. This usually creates what's called 'pattern interruption' in the individual and totally derails him. Why? Because he was locked into a certain sequence and his subconscious mind couldn't deal with something going south.


That's why you shouldn't practice with the assumption that everything goes right - once the patterns are learned you need to train for alternate responsese and mistakes, using the entire library of kata as a resource for how to handle the challenges presented.

I think it is important to consider that the patterns of Taira-san that you see online are just the "jumping off point" from which to learn kata application. They do not represent his concept of how an entire real fight plays out, but rather how to link kata applications together in a manner to control an opponent from move to move. It is well recognized (and practiced) that you need to be adaptive and responsive to reality.
Dave Oddy
Syracuse Martial Arts Kenkyukai

Authentic Goju-ryu Karate in Syracuse, NY
Elite-level WKF Sport Kumite
DaveOddy
Supporter
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:09 am
Location: Syracuse, NY
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby RenegadeMonk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:39 am

The reason you don't see much response is because his movement is designed to maintain initiative and keep you on the defensive. He doesn't land blows because you (hopefully) know the pattern well enough to block everthing, but with less experienced uke, you will find that the pattern doesn't finish beacuse blows are landed - once blows are landed it comes to a close very quickly as it should. For example, if you were to see him try the pattern on me (even as someone who kind of knows it) you wouldn't see it in its entirety. Why not? Simply because I couldn't keep up with the defense and the fight would end in the first couple of moves.


Slight thread drift, but in the recent thread discussing using kata applications in sparring this is the kind of thing I was talking about when I mentioned learning to apply the principles processes and sequences of a kata in offence, as well as the traditional defensive/receptive position.

It's not about the uke not actively participating, it's about taking control and attacking relentlessly. A trap or a clearance of a gaurd hand are the same technique as the strike, but applied differently based on the opponents response.

A suitably constructed chi-sau drill enables you to learn how to flow seemlessly through techniques and adapt to your opponents movements.
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!
RenegadeMonk
Member
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:34 pm
Location: London, UK
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby DaveOddy » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:04 am

RenegadeMonk wrote:
A suitably constructed chi-sau drill enables you to learn how to flow seemlessly through techniques and adapt to your opponents movements.


Interestingly, a big part of Taira-san's training method involves practicing bunkai segments from kakie (chi-sau)...
Dave Oddy
Syracuse Martial Arts Kenkyukai

Authentic Goju-ryu Karate in Syracuse, NY
Elite-level WKF Sport Kumite
DaveOddy
Supporter
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:09 am
Location: Syracuse, NY
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby RenegadeMonk » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:38 am

It is unsurprising really. Taira sensei and I obviously have very similar ideas, likely inspired by similar things. Frankly I'm surprised it's taken so long for someone to take their Goju Karate in this direction since so much is made of Miyagi's training in china and Goju's links to white crane et al.

After training in some southern kungfu and getting a feel for the principles peculiar to these styles Goju stood out to me as clearly having been built on many of the same ideas, but until Taira sensei I've never seen it executed.

I think the same traditionalism that stunts Shotokan's development by keeping those within it's dojo's marching up and down in endless kihon practice, infects all of the Karate world in varying forms.
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!
RenegadeMonk
Member
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:34 pm
Location: London, UK
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby swdw » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:19 am

DaveOddy wrote:
RenegadeMonk wrote:A suitably constructed chi-sau drill enables you to learn how to flow seamlessly through techniques and adapt to your opponents movements.


Interestingly, a big part of Taira-san's training method involves practicing bunkai segments from kakie (chi-sau)...


Can't do anything but agree with both statements.

RenegadeMonk wrote:That's why you shouldn't practice with the assumption that everything goes right - once the patterns are learned you need to train for alternate responses and mistakes, using the entire library of kata as a resource for how to handle the challenges presented.

I think it is important to consider that the patterns of Taira-san that you see online are just the "jumping off point" from which to learn kata application.


I'd agree with what you say with the understanding that there are higher levels. Problem is, you rarely see it go past the jumping off point. Kinda like the criticism of kakie in the other thread by people who've not taken it past the most basic levels. Same thing with ippon kumite. It's only the "grade school" level of prearranged sparring, yet most schools never go past that and jump straight to the point version of jyu kumite.

Hope you don't mind me playing devil's advocate, but doing so got you to add these very important statements to what you said earlier and fills in more of the picture.

RenegadeMonk wrote:After training in some southern kungfu and getting a feel for the principles peculiar to these styles Goju stood out to me as clearly having been built on many of the same ideas, but until Taira sensei I've never seen it executed.


For years there a lot of Goju out there that was taught by people who spent a 2-3 years at best in Okinawa, came back and started teaching or who learned from such a person. This wasn't helped by the "ryu wars" that went on for a while either. Now that people are sharing info and working out together, Goju is starting (in some areas) to come back to where it should have been.

I have the fortune of training under someone that spent 15 years in the orient, a little over 12 in Okinawa, and was a live-in / full time student of Masanobu Shinjo for 4 of those years. For a long time, my perspective on Goju was different from many other people's. It's good to see some of the things happening in Goju (I say some because others are not good, as some schools are becoming, as John Roseberry said, Gogo ryu)
swdw
Member
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:03 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby DaveOddy » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:28 am

RenegadeMonk wrote:Frankly I'm surprised it's taken so long for someone to take their Goju Karate in this direction


Well it is also worth considering that Taira-san has been working on this for forty years - and his senpai before him - and with the guidance of Miyazato Sensei. The internet's smaller world has in many ways made him seem like he's new on the scene, but he's been working on this all along with his dojo-mates... I believe he's taken it further than others have, but it's not like it's new to goju... If you ask him, he'll tell you it's been there all along...

I think there's a lot of truth to the post above about people who only trained for a few years and then went back to start their organizations. This is unfortunately the goju that we see every day around the world and we shouldn't assume goju stops where they did in their training. Many times they are just very advanced and experienced beginners.

It takes a good solid ten years of immersive training in Okinawa to get to a level of competence and this is VERY difficult to reproduce away from the deep body of expertise that fills the dojo over there. Then even if someone competent moves somewhere to teach, there is only one of them, not a dojo full of experts in which to emerse yourself. I personally barely broke the surface after three years and barely inch ahead with anuual visits.

This is somewhat disheartening, but it is what it is... You do the best you can...
Dave Oddy
Syracuse Martial Arts Kenkyukai

Authentic Goju-ryu Karate in Syracuse, NY
Elite-level WKF Sport Kumite
DaveOddy
Supporter
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:09 am
Location: Syracuse, NY
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby RenegadeMonk » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:24 am

If you ask him, he'll tell you it's been there all along...


Yes, but they all say that. In this case I do think, based on what I've seen of Fujian MA, that this may have been where Miyagi had planned on taking his art, but perhaps like many of the teachers of the day WW2 changed his mind.

It takes a good solid ten years of immersive training in Okinawa to get to a level of competence and this is VERY difficult to reproduce away from the deep body of expertise that fills the dojo over there. Then even if someone competent moves somewhere to teach, there is only one of them, not a dojo full of experts in which to emerse yourself. I personally barely broke the surface after three years and barely inch ahead with anuual visits.


Hmmm... I've yet to be convinced of this. Sure if your days are filled with little other than training you can and will excel in whatever martial art you choose, but I've yet to enounter any skill or combination of skills and abilities in MA terms that competent teaching cannot embue in a much shorter time frame.
As I said I view Karate on similar lines and it wasn't training at the JKA honbu that sent me in that direction, hell that would have just turned me into another Shotokan robot. It wasn't even my kungfu training that initiated my explorations. That training along with Taekwondo (yes Taekwondo) just showed me how to train in order to apply what I was developing. The drive to study and develop my understanding of karate technique and kata application was my own and I believe that this is all any Karateka needs to develop, not great teachers or decades in Okinawa.

When I mentioned the growth stunting effects of traditionalism it was the tendency to follow the party line and not think or in some cases even look outside the box in terms of applying the art. More often than not I think this occurs because people are happy with what they are being taught, but an incurious mind can be happy with any dross since it lacks the drive to find out what else is available. This mentality is so prevalent in the Shotokan circles that I have experienced that the art see's thousands upon thousands of students and almost no innovation at all, to a style that is only around 70 years old yet has more forgotten knowledge than usable information.

Karate's follow the leader tradition is IMO the reason that there aren't a thousand Taira Sensei's around the world changing how things are done by everyone. I am more and more coming to the conclusion that somewhere between 1st and 3rd dan all teaching should stop and the karateka should be forced to guide his own development with no more than suggestions from his sensei.
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!
RenegadeMonk
Member
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:34 pm
Location: London, UK
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Taira Sensei performs Seipai & bunkai

Postby DaveOddy » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:15 am

RenegadeMonk wrote:I am more and more coming to the conclusion that somewhere between 1st and 3rd dan all teaching should stop and the karateka should be forced to guide his own development with no more than suggestions from his sensei.


This is exactly the environment that Taira-san and his training partners came from. But it works because of the body of seniors that is there to look up to and train with as needed. Without such exposure, self-directed study can just as easily end up down the path of the frauds and self-proclaimed masters and style creators that are so ever-present in martial arts.

What I'm saying is that you can't reproduce this environment in a dojo where only the top guy has any direct training and then only to the point of learning the basics. With the exception of basic technique and methods, you are in effect starting over with each generation when it comes to advanced concepts. It is only recently in our smaller world that people have developed an ability to obtain continuity and connection with the ongoing research and training in Okinawa. But that doesn't mean that it has been lacking in goju - it has been there all the time in their practice - we just don't get to see it from afar...

I've had this debate before with others and it is difficult to appreciate the level of depth without seeing it and feeling it over an extended period of time. I know we all do the best we can to come as close as we can, but it's still not the same. I believe you that it's sometimes a case of blindly following that stifles growth, but I also think that in many cases it's just a limitation of the shallow exposure we suffer by training remotely without daily exposure to the true depth of advanced practitioners and not the expert beginners that many instructors (including myself) usually are.
Dave Oddy
Syracuse Martial Arts Kenkyukai

Authentic Goju-ryu Karate in Syracuse, NY
Elite-level WKF Sport Kumite
DaveOddy
Supporter
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:09 am
Location: Syracuse, NY
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Previous

 

Return to Karate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron