"Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on film

A forum for all styles of karate

Moderator: Kumaken

 

"Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on film

Postby dandjurdjevic » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:25 pm



This is the full clip of the previous uploaded PRE WWII Goju Ryu training (07). The difference is that the karate portion has a few seconds of students performing Seyunchin at the end. The leader is of Okinawa in the pre war days and an exhibition of RyuKyu Classical Dance ( Buyo):
Featuring Kotaro Kohama & Shinzato Jin'an Sensei (1901-1945) and was taken in the yard of the Okinawan Prefecture Teachers College. The man using the chishi is reported to be Sogen Sakiyama Roshi; now of the Okinawan Int'l Zen Center.
- The famous Itoman Karate expert Machiya Buntoku (Kinjo Matsu) was filmed. Also on the film is a demonstration of the Naha-Te kururunfa and Tensho kata. The performers include Kyoda Juhatsu (age 30), Shinzato Jinan (age 17) and 5-6 others. A group demonstration of about 50 people including Gusukuma Koki or Tahara Taizo or Nakamoto Seibun, performs Seiunchin/Seyuchin kata. This is probably the oldest karate film in Okinawa.
Some writers about this video believe that Miyagi Sensei himself is training with the 'tan', if so then it is the only video of Miyagi Sensei ever taken.
For more info http://web.mclink.it/MC6954/_private/... file that gives a history of this clip.
Dan Djurdjevic
Chief Instructor, Academy of Traditional Fighting Arts, Perth Western Australia
http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com
User avatar
dandjurdjevic
Site administrator
 
Posts: 5307
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: Perth Western Australia
Has thanked: 390 times
Been thanked: 270 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby bobw72 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:55 am

I remember seeing some of this a while back. I always cringe when I see that excercise where they roll that barbell on their backs in a 'good morning' position... That could be detrimental as the neck was not designed to support that type of weight.
Rob Wright

"Competitions are about medals and about winning, but life is about 'not losing.' This is the philosophy of real karate."
- Onaga Yoshimitsu
User avatar
bobw72
Member
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:04 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby RyukyuMA » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:30 am

bobw72 wrote:I remember seeing some of this a while back. I always cringe when I see that excercise where they roll that barbell on their backs in a 'good morning' position... That could be detrimental as the neck was not designed to support that type of weight.


People have been supporting heavier weights with that part of the neck (water in containers on the two ends of a stick) for at least 10,000 years. If it was problematic I am pretty sure that is a long enough time frame to have noticed. The supposed danger is pure non-sense IMHO. When something is too heavy to carry by hand people carry it in that position on the neck (or occasionally on the head especially if the distances are great). We've gotten so soft that we apparently do not even remember that this is a perfectly normal and safe way to support significant weight while traveling. :cry:

Imagine carrying five gallons of water (think a filled gatorade cooler) by hand for one city block. If you are like me that would be pretty taxing (but definitely possible). Now imagine having to move -2- of those, not a block, but instead two miles on foot. Not even possible by hand for one guy without taking rests at several points and he would need to do this twice. During the second trip the rest periods would need to be both longer and more frequent. Not a great way to spend an afternoon.

However, one guy can get both of them moved in a single trip (in about 30-40 minutes) if he uses a stick without overly taxing himself.

It is a super effective way to move heavy things around. These day the farthest we carry anything is to the car and this has been forgotten.
"There are no karate men who do not use the Makiwara." - Nagamine Shoshin shinshii
Uchinaaguchi Technical Terminology
Free Ryukyu Martial Arts Videos
User avatar
RyukyuMA
Member
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:22 am
Location: ryukyuma.blogspot.com
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby Fish Of Doom » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:13 am

I think you're both talking about different things. Rob is talking about the bent over position with the bar on the neck. That WILL injure your neck, if and only if you let the bar actually rest on the neck itself, ie on the cervical spine. That's part of why some people get neck pain while squatting, for example (Forwards lean + improper shoulder position). What Ryan seems to be mentioning is what would be called a 'yoke carry' in modern fitness lingo, which has the weight balanced on the (Constantly contracted) trapezius muscles (Either on top, or sandwiched between them and the deltoids), without ever coming into contact with the neck itself. Can't quite tell in the video whether the bar used comes to rest significantly on the guy's neck, though, but it's also a very thick bar, so the total pressure exerted on it is probably not terribly injurious even if it did, I would think.
Diego Romero

every time someone reposts that article about the 3/4 rotation punch, choki motobu kills a makiwara.

please, think of the makiwaras.
User avatar
Fish Of Doom
Member
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:19 pm
Location: Buenos Aires
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby RyukyuMA » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:04 am

Fish Of Doom wrote:I think you're both talking about different things. Rob is talking about the bent over position with the bar on the neck. That WILL injure your neck, if and only if you let the bar actually rest on the neck itself, ie on the cervical spine.


I've done that exercise a very large number of times and guess what... No injuries.

I watched the video and I am talking about the EXACT place where the Tan ended up. He had it on the exact same part of the neck that I am talking about carrying water with and bending over will NOT make cervical injury more likely. If you believe that then you just don't understand how the spine works at all. It will make lower back injury more likely. However the shirtless guy with the train-wheel Tan is obviously making a very large effort to keep the back straight and is very physically fit. So in those circumstances injury *very* unlikely. For instance he was FAR more likely to injure his toes or foot by dropping the Tan and yet I don't hear anyone saying how dangerous it is to the feet.

There is a super brief shot of a non-fit clearly inexperienced guy using a Tan. That -is- a bit dumb. Tan and kongoken are equipment for indeterminate lever students and up, not beginners.

Keeping your knees bent 90 degrees or less is something that actually *matters*. If you think the shirtless fit guy was likely to injure himself you don't get it. Nothing he did was likely in anyway to injure the neck. Lumbar injuries on people who are less careful about proper form and/or not as fit are possible, but that goes to my point about it not being for beginners.

I'm guessing you have never done the exercise because you seem to believe weight is being applied to an area it isn't, in a way that it isn't, and at an angle that it isn't. Of course it is possible to hurt your neck by applying a large amount of force in the wrong area, in the wrong way, and at the wrong angle. That isn't what the video shows. If you had felt the exercise, you'd understand that force is being applied to the neck in exactly the same way as when carrying water.

When it is rolling up the back you are already beginning to raise up. When this is combined with a "looking up as far as you can" neck position, it is not possible for the Tan to roll farther up than the meaty Trapezius supported part of the neck. I use the back of my head to keep the Tan from rolling too far up, although I admit the guy in the video doesn't do this. The exercise is not inherently dangerous to the neck if done right.
"There are no karate men who do not use the Makiwara." - Nagamine Shoshin shinshii
Uchinaaguchi Technical Terminology
Free Ryukyu Martial Arts Videos
User avatar
RyukyuMA
Member
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:22 am
Location: ryukyuma.blogspot.com
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby RyukyuMA » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:26 am

I think the point some people are missing is that on the last few inches the Tan is actually rolling *uphill*. While the Tan (or any object really) is moving upward due to momentum, you are not supporting its (full) weight. The body only begins to support its weight again when the object begins its decent *after* you are in the "carry water" position. Besides, like I said, a nice thick barred Tan like that can easily be prevented from rolling too far up (higher than the trapezius) the neck using neck positioning (looking up) and/or the back of the head. At least that is my understanding of how it is -supposed- to work, and it appears the guy is doing it pretty darn well to me.
"There are no karate men who do not use the Makiwara." - Nagamine Shoshin shinshii
Uchinaaguchi Technical Terminology
Free Ryukyu Martial Arts Videos
User avatar
RyukyuMA
Member
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:22 am
Location: ryukyuma.blogspot.com
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby Fish Of Doom » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:24 pm

Defensive, much?

Please take the time to re-read what I actually said.

I said:

if and only if you let the bar actually rest on the neck itself, ie on the cervical spine


NOT "The guy in the video has a weight on his cervical spine and therefore will injure himself".

I also said this:

What Ryan seems to be mentioning


Meaning that is what your post read like. Attacking someone for misunderstanding something you said is hardly civil behaviour.

You also appear to have missed my last sentence, where I quite clearly stated why I think the guy in the video would NOT have injured his neck doing that (Or at least, doing it correctly, if I interpreted your statement correctly and he is in face doing it before the stage of his training where it would be appropriate for him to do it, and thus likely doing it incorrectly).

As for me not understanding how the spine works, give me five years to complete the kinesiology degree I start on Monday and then I'll get back to you on how much I know right now. Or, you could provide actual information instead of slinging accusations of lack of knowledge, since I happen to have the peculiarity of enjoying learning new things, while at the same time not enjoying people saying I am dumb while simultaneously doing nothing to help me solve that.

On that note, I have never heard of anyone carrying anything on the shoulders while bent over. Care to source that statement? Or are you perhaps referring to how the stick with the water-pails is lifted off the ground to be then carried like this?

Image

This, incidentally, IS what is called a yoke carry in modern fitness lingo, and which I referred to in my prior post as what I believed you were in turn referring to.
Diego Romero

every time someone reposts that article about the 3/4 rotation punch, choki motobu kills a makiwara.

please, think of the makiwaras.
User avatar
Fish Of Doom
Member
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:19 pm
Location: Buenos Aires
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby RyukyuMA » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:11 am

Fish Of Doom wrote:Defensive, much?
if and only if you let the bar actually rest on the neck itself, ie on the cervical spine


NOT "The guy in the video has a weight on his cervical spine and therefore will injure himself".


We were discussing the video. If you suddenly change the topic to something not shown in the video it seems like a good idea to make that a bit clearer. But it is also incumbent on me to read more cautiously.

Meaning that is what your post read like. Attacking someone for misunderstanding something you said is hardly civil behaviour.

What are you talking about? I am missing the "attack" part.

I sated that IF you think something that is blatantly untrue then you don't understand it.
That is a simple true statement not an "attack". It is like saying, "if you think an automobile will explode from putting sugar in the gas tank then you don't understand how a car works"

If you don't believe sugar in a gas tank will cause an explosion then the statement doesn't apply to you.

If you do believe sugar in a gas tank will cause an explosion, then the statement is so fundamentally true it can't possibly be called an "attack". It is just iterating the self-evident.

In neither case is the statement an attack.

You also appear to have missed my last sentence, where I quite clearly stated why I think the guy in the video would NOT have injured his neck doing that


You are correct I did miss that and I apologize. Of course (but for the last sentence) it still seems like you were responding to the same topic that Bob and I were discussing (what was in the video)... but I digress... You are correct, I didn't read it carefully, and misunderstood what you were saying. My bad, I should have been more careful.

You appear to have done the same thing seemingly missing the word "IF" in the statement about understanding how the spine works. The difference is I have not gotten all offended and indignant over it.

(Or at least, doing it correctly, if I interpreted your statement correctly and he is in face doing it before the stage of his training where it would be appropriate for him to do it, and thus likely doing it incorrectly).


The above sentence is confusing to me (please don't have a melt down over me calling you "confusing" now, I am merely saying I find it difficult to understand with certainty). I don't want to misstate your positions again. However, it very definitely doesn't sound anything like an accurate portrayal of anything I said.

As for me not understanding how the spine works, give me five years to complete the kinesiology degree I start on Monday and then I'll get back to you on how much I know right now. Or, you could provide actual information instead of slinging accusations of lack of knowledge, since I happen to have the peculiarity of enjoying learning new things, while at the same time not enjoying people saying I am dumb while simultaneously doing nothing to help me solve that.


"Dumb" and "not understanding" / "not knowing" are different things entirely. "Dumb" can't be "solved" by any method I'm aware of. On the other hand, "not understanding" can be "solved". I thought I DID solve it by pointing out that bending over creates strain centered in the lumbar area not the cervical area. How could have I made it clearer?

In any event, I didn't "sling" either "accusation" at you.

On that note, I have never heard of anyone carrying anything on the shoulders while bent over. Care to source that statement?


Care to source the statement where I said people do carry water bent over? Because I definitely didn't claim any such thing and implying that I did is just a mediocre strawman.

I hope we can get this conversation back on track. If you insist on being offended by something I didn't say then you'll have to do it alone. I did misunderstand part of what you were saying and wasn't reading carefully enough. I do apologize for that. But as to the other stuff, the most I can muster is a "whatever"
"There are no karate men who do not use the Makiwara." - Nagamine Shoshin shinshii
Uchinaaguchi Technical Terminology
Free Ryukyu Martial Arts Videos
User avatar
RyukyuMA
Member
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:22 am
Location: ryukyuma.blogspot.com
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby Billy » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:51 am

Thanks Dan. I have been looking out for this.

Billy
-------------
Francis Billy Balie
Goju-ryu Karate-do Kenwa-kai
Billy
Consultant
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:50 am
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby CEB » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:25 am

FWIW, The Tan exercise is not that bad. I can do it and I'm a girlie man. It isn't that heavy the weight is distrubuted across the shoulders the bar is thicker and wooden. It isn't like using a 45 pound Oly barbell. ..... as long as you keep you eyes looking up. If you look down you can sure make mess of it. :lol:

We often 5-6" wooden fence poles for tan. For some of the arm conditioning stuff a barbells works but can be a little brutal if you aint up to it. Slow and steady wins the race.

Sashi is what I don't like. They hurt the tops of my feet when you do the leg exercises.
CEB
Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:28 am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby Chunmonchek » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:28 am

CEB wrote:FWIW, The Tan exercise is not that bad. I can do it and I'm a girlie man. It isn't that heavy the weight is distrubuted across the shoulders the bar is thicker and wooden. It isn't like using a 45 pound Oly barbell. ..... as long as you keep you eyes looking up. If you look down you can sure make mess of it. :lol:

We often 5-6" wooden fence poles for tan. For some of the arm conditioning stuff a barbells works but can be a little brutal if you aint up to it. Slow and steady wins the race.

Sashi is what I don't like. They hurt the tops of my feet when you do the leg exercises.


For the Tan we've used black pipe. IIRC, 2" OD black pipe about 5' long, with (I think) 1" OD black pipe inside. Both ends of the 2" pipe were capped.
Chunmonchek
Supporter
 
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:40 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby CEB » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:39 am

That is a good Idea Chris. The fence post are are nice for some of the gripping exercises that Chinen Sensei does. But 2" would probably make a much better "rolling pin" .

I have a student from St. Louis area that made Kogoken from Pvc Pipe that was probably about that size. He was able to bend the PVC somehow. Then he filled the Kogoken. We did ours at a muffler shop years ago. I like the feel of steel but the PVCs work OK for a lot of the exercise.
CEB
Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:28 am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby bobw72 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:27 am

Oh boy, here we go...

Sorry I still have to agree with diego; it's the plane of motion that concerns me. I could see it being a safe excercise as long as you don't go past your shoulders, which is what I saw in the video. What purpose would it serve to solely train your neck like that by isolating it with weight in that plane of motion? You can easily strengthen it by doing other vertical exercises as your neck will always be engaged to straighten your spine in a safer way.

Ryan, I am definitely not knocking these older methods of conditioning and I have seen alot of different types on youtube, etc. but this is the only one that I could see being harmful IF you don't have good instruction on it. For me, my favourite excercises are for posterior development to which most people, IMHO opinion, have poor technique - their backs are rounded, not engaging their legs, etc; so when I see something like this on a horizontal plane of motion it worries me.

However I have never attempted this and perhaps it is more technical than I thought. Personally I would seek out other methods to strengthen that part of the body.

Ok I'm done. Moving it along... Does anyone train with/have any good chishi excercises?
Rob Wright

"Competitions are about medals and about winning, but life is about 'not losing.' This is the philosophy of real karate."
- Onaga Yoshimitsu
User avatar
bobw72
Member
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:04 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby RyukyuMA » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:04 pm

I've been having a stressful few months and have been even more prone to argumentative behavior than usual. :twisted:

To be completely honest I am basing my assessment of the danger to the neck on: 1) the fact I have never been injured or felt significant neck strain. 2) I have never even -heard- of anyone actually getting a neck injury 3) the Tan's full weight is never applied to the neck 4) the part of the neck which receives this weight is pretty study and has been commonly used to support much heavier weights.

This is all anecdotal evidence at best. I have no background in exercise physiology. I have never even had any instruction in modern weight training methods (or their newfangled ideas about proper form). So I really had no business even offering an opinion.

Warmly yours
Ryan
"There are no karate men who do not use the Makiwara." - Nagamine Shoshin shinshii
Uchinaaguchi Technical Terminology
Free Ryukyu Martial Arts Videos
User avatar
RyukyuMA
Member
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:22 am
Location: ryukyuma.blogspot.com
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby Zach Zinn » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:55 pm

I'm gonna hazard a guess that the possibility of damage to spine or neck is dependent on how you are moving up, if you are using solely the extensor muscles of the spine that might be true. If it's like the qigong-type tanren exercise though, the whole point is to use your spine in a way where you are sort of pushing up from your center and using the antagonists to these muscles somewhat too.

I learned an exercise that is this movement you do with a partner applying pressure..it IS dangerous if you have a bad back or don't know the correct mechanics..in fact it will hurt immediately if that's the case. If you know how to do it though, it does not put alot of strain there, and that is sort of the point. Still not something I'd do a ton of reps of.
"they'll never ever reach the moon, at least not the one that we're after"
Zach Zinn
Supporter
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:33 am
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 125 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby CEB » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:52 pm

bobw72 wrote:.... Does anyone train with/have any good chishi excercises?


Yes but they are probably dangerous. :D
CEB
Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:28 am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby Zach Zinn » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:37 am

For Chi ishi, other than the typical hojo undo exercises, i've found Scott Sonnon's club bell exercises to be pretty good. He has a Big Book of Culb Bells, and various videos floating around the web.
"they'll never ever reach the moon, at least not the one that we're after"
Zach Zinn
Supporter
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:33 am
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 125 times

Re: "Ryukyuan Things" (full) - earliest Okinawan karate on f

Postby CEB » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:08 am

Danger with Chisihi.

Several years ago, maybe 15 or 20 years ago or so we at Paul Sweetow's dojo in Chicago. We were doing hojo undo with Chi Ishi. Paul just had a new wooden floor laid in the dojo. It was absolutely gorgeous. It was done by the same people who did the floor the Chicago Bulls play on. We doing one of the Chiishi drills out of Shiko Dachi Ido. At one point you move 45 degree toward a corner and do a thrust with the chishi toward the corner of the room. It was at this point one of the guys launched a chiishi through the room and it crashed on that brand new virgin wooden floor.

Pretty dangerous because I thought Paul was going to kill him. :lol:

Actually Paul took it well. He always seemed to be a very understanding and nice guy.
CEB
Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:28 am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 13 times


 

Return to Karate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

cron