Sine wave? Here we go...

[Kumaken]

I agree with you Dan, and I think your kicking demo is a good example. I can see how any excess movement would interfere there.

[MAGon]

Gents: First of all, I apologize in advance if anything I write is a repeat of what someone else has already mentioned. I ran into this thread when it was already into it's ninth page. Frankly, I lacked the patience to read it through (Though I will! Just a bit at a time) before opening my big mouth. That said, I like much of what Colin Wee wrote early on. I'd like to expand on some of it.

The Sine Wave indeed is about using the natural falling momentum of the body to generate force. The stepping up within forms allows the practitioner to reiterate this movement, and ultimately looks like they are accomplishing a sine wave. The usage of the Sine Wave as a way to differentiate TKD away from other hard style martial arts is the most significant development in recent years that Taekwondo has undergone.
Most any traditional hard stylist would probably think the Sine Wave is complete bullocks; given that I am a traditional stylist, that indeed was my immediate and most outstanding opinion. HOWEVER, saying that, there are a number of ways to generate power and to effect natural movement. The Sine Wave will be and has to be included as a legitimate tactic to either generate power or to effect movement or directional change. It is just that few other martial arts would make one specific tactic a major strategic differentiator.
But it is not unheard of. Shotokan Karate for instance, practices drills that focus on ikken hisatsu/kime/hikite tactics with great abandon ... and such institutionalization of their practice in the early 20th century forever changed the nature of karate as we know it now.

Nice! But I'd go further than he did. Being a Shotokan stylist as well as having done Kenjutsu for 6 yrs. I can confidently point out that the concept of dropping the hips to generate extra power is very much a part of the orthodoxy in both arts (I shouldn't wonder if the Funakoshi's (Gichin and Gigo) didn't graft this onto Shotokan from the sword arts when they were experimenting with the lower stances as well as trying to make Karate less "foreign" to the Japanese). In Kenjutsu, much of the footwork is rapid, and the stances (Such as they are, but that's for another thread) are mostly high, much like Okinawan styles. But when the swordsman makes a committed, killing, cut, the stance widens, deepens and the hips are dropped in order to add power. Shotokan teaches low, deep stances and keeping the hips at the same height through the kyu grades. But judansha are allowed higher stances in order to move more rapidly (The elder Funakoshi famously said that higher stances were reserved for advanced practitioners), but are taught to revert to the low stances and sink their hips when striking. So you could say that the Sine Wave isn't all that original, nor particular to a branch of TKD.

Now all of the above was meant to add power to strikes where the arms are involved. As to kicking, it obviously has no role to play insofar as power generation. I can see why from a practical, not just political, point of view (As TKD_X mentioned) the kick-heavy-frown-on-hand-techniques WTF would see little use in incorporating the nadir part of the Sine Wave to their version of TKD. The apex, though, IMO is a different story.

Despite being a Shotokan stylist, at 6'2" head kicks are something I personally will attempt much more often than is the norm in Karate, mainly because for most people I'm at a height advantage and, when targeting the head, I'm not really kicking all that high. Anyway, while doing so from my by-now-ingrained Shotokan low stances, I find myself having to transition to a higher stance, somewhat like the apex part of the movement of the Sine Wave. Otherwise, trying to kick high from a low stance is impractical (Too much loss of power and speed), uncomfortable or just plain nigh impossible.

So my take of the Sine Wave is that, whether it was meant that way or not, it's a tool to teach dropping the hips to generate power when punching, then for rapidly transitioning from a low, deep stance to a higher one that permits kicking to the head.

Stepping away from my particular style's idiosyncracy, I can at least see a logic behind the Sine Wave. It may be a case of too much of a good thing, and it's not free of risks (E.g.: If one shows this pattern of wave movement to an opponent once too often, and he gets his timing just right (So as to catch it close to the apex, when the center of gravity is at it's highest and the feet almost together) then sweeps, one is likely to land on ones noggin' on what could be a very hard floor!). But IMHO there IS a logic to it!

[TKD_X]

Hello MAgon,

I agree with you on moving from low to high or high to low for power. A lot of people will. I think the problem with Sine Wave is that it advocates going from an already lowered position to a high position, and then a return to the lowered position instead of simply executing the movement by staying in the lowered position. From what I have learned in the last couple of years, I would like to say the only times that a slight down-up-down movement is useful is when executing multiple techniques from a fixed stance where there is no stepping/turning/twisting to generate power.

TKD_X

[dandjurdjevic]

As a theoretical construct, "rising and falling" to add force does make some sense.

The problem arises when it makes its transition from this theory to its practice in ITF. In my view, this implementation of the sine wave theory is so literal it becomes farcical.

I would say that to the extent that one can see some point in a "rise and fall" theory, this point is addressed by noting this trend in natural movement. Trying to "force" movements into a "sine wave" mould is another story.

The problem "sine wave" theory faces is the same problem faced by other "power generation" theories (eg. "koshi"): there are multiple ways of generating greater force, and all of them are both valid and necessary. Not one of them is, of itself, some kind of panacea. And all of them must be applied in the course of natural, contextually appropriate movement.

I've said before, I'd love to see a kata (eg. naihanchi sho) performed with both sine wave and koshi. What a bouncing, shaking disaster that would be. Yet, in theory, it might seem to be quite a sound idea...

[dandjurdjevic]

Further to my previous post, the video below illustrates my point about the fact that multiple "force generating" theories are always working at the same time:



You'll see the isolated horizontal rotation of the hips at about 0:13. Then you'll see the "vertical" rotation of the hips at about 0:20 (although it is both horizontal and vertical). This movement starts to approach "sine wave" in as much as you get an "rise and fall". Then at about 0:55 you'll see what I call "contextual" hip movement (some movements taken from taijiquan).

Particularly at around 0:59 and 1:42 you'll note that body does "rise" and "fall" depending on my hip loading/unloading. However this movement is intimately connected with the hip rotation and the technique generally.

In short, divorcing either "sine wave" or "koshi" from this context would be in error, as you would simply be taking out one aspect of a multi-faceted movement. And divorced from its context this one facet is as useless as a car without wheels.

[TKD_X]

Hello Dan,

That is a good example of how the hips can rise and fall to generate power. Specifically around 0:59, you can indeed see that motion. However, the rise corresponds to one technique and the fall to another technique. Rise-strike, fall-strike, etc. That is what makes perfect sense; that is also not sine wave. Now for the hypothetical. Imagine that from a low position, you went up and then down for one technique (striking on the fall), and then up and down again for the next (again striking only at the fall). That is the ridiculous nature of Sine Wave. When you could have executed one technique on the rise and one on the fall, you instead choose to only utilize the falls. You are not utilizing every opportunity to strike and that is why sine wave wouldn't work. I don't care how much power you will get from this enormous exaggerated bounce, it doesn't matter one bit if you get hit first before you can complete your low-high-low sequence. Essentially, it is the time that kills you.

Any martial artist, whether they realize it or not, will incorporate a rise or a fall somewhere. I don't think we could manage without rises and falls. It is the sequence of low-high-low applied to every single technique that is the black sheep of power generation. As long as it is used appropriately, someone will make use of the black wool, but that is the exception to the norm.

TKD_X

[MAGon]

Hello MAgon,

I agree with you on moving from low to high or high to low for power. A lot of people will. I think the problem with Sine Wave is that it advocates going from an already lowered position to a high position, and then a return to the lowered position instead of simply executing the movement by staying in the lowered position.
TKD_X

Hi, TKD_X.
I modified what you wrote by putting in bold lettering what I wanted to address.
I can also see a certain logic to the rising (I called it "apex") part of the sine wave. The obvious part is to get height in order to power-drop when striking with the hands/arms. The value of that is debatable (Personally, as a Shotokan stylist, I prefer to stay low when I execute, as you describe). But this rising or "apex" movement of the sine wave I see as of much more real value for getting oneself in position to kick high, then drop as one strikes with the hands. In a kick-oriented art like TKD, where high kicks are commonplace, I see a definite utility. In fact, to a greater or lesser degree we all (Strikers in arts where kicks are used) do this (Rise, I mean), conciously or not, if kicking to the head. It's just too hard to kick that high from a low stance.
BTW, how are things "allá"? "Aquí", it's all good!

[MAGon]

Hello Dan,

That is a good example of how the hips can rise and fall to generate power. Specifically around 0:59, you can indeed see that motion. However, the rise corresponds to one technique and the fall to another technique. Rise-strike, fall-strike, etc. That is what makes perfect sense; that is also not sine wave. Now for the hypothetical. Imagine that from a low position, you went up and then down for one technique (striking on the fall), and then up and down again for the next (again striking only at the fall). That is the ridiculous nature of Sine Wave. When you could have executed one technique on the rise and one on the fall, you instead choose to only utilize the falls. You are not utilizing every opportunity to strike and that is why sine wave wouldn't work. I don't care how much power you will get from this enormous exaggerated bounce, it doesn't matter one bit if you get hit first before you can complete your low-high-low sequence. Essentially, it is the time that kills you.

Any martial artist, whether they realize it or not, will incorporate a rise or a fall somewhere. I don't think we could manage without rises and falls. It is the sequence of low-high-low applied to every single technique that is the black sheep of power generation. As long as it is used appropriately, someone will make use of the black wool, but that is the exception to the norm.

TKD_X

Haven't seen the video, but I'll take your word for it.
What you wrote is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make, said your way (Probably better written than me, too!). One can debate the merits of the sine wave, but not discard it out of hand. There are positive principles in-, and applications to-, it, despite perhaps being taught or applied by some in a less than optimal way.

[dandjurdjevic]

I don't care how much power you will get from this enormous exaggerated bounce, it doesn't matter one bit if you get hit first before you can complete your low-high-low sequence. Essentially, it is the time that kills you.

Excellently put.

[MAGon]

...However, the rise corresponds to one technique and the fall to another technique. Rise-strike, fall-strike, etc. That is what makes perfect sense; that is also not sine wave...

Just saw this.
Not being into KMAs, I thought the "Sine Wave" just referred to the concept of the rise and fall of the hips as one moves about, mimmicking and trying to optimize the natural movement one sees in beginners (In styles where the hips are meant to stay low and level). In my mind, I wasn't defining it as being limited to necessarily executing one technique per "wavelength". If defined that way, it's of much more limited utility (Then again, the same can be said of the "step-punch", "-block" or "-kick" one sees in basics in every other style. More on this below).
Also, I'm basing my take of the "Sine Wave" as being trained in the exaggerated "giant bounce step", but meant to be used while fighting in as abbreviated a form as necessary to avoid vulnerabilites, much as we in Shotokan have these big movements, accompanied with wide sweeps of the hip and very low stances which are taught while doing basics to ingrain the concept, but isn't meant to be executed in this fashion "real world" (Unless the opponent is a complete incompetent!). If this is the case, then I stand by what I've written here. As you yourself mentioned:

...Any martial artist, whether they realize it or not, will incorporate a rise or a fall somewhere. I don't think we could manage without rises and falls...

If this isn't the case, however, I'm left scratching my head about what Gen. Choi has been indulging in as far as mind altering substances!